View Poll Results: HOW MANY IRAQIS DIED?

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  • 1,000-5,000

    2 3.92%
  • 5,000-50,000

    2 3.92%
  • 50,000-100,000

    12 23.53%
  • 100,000-1,000,000+

    35 68.63%
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Thread: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

  1. #451
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    One need not believe in the fantasy of altruism to appreciate the acts of others.
    But if the act of that person is for selfish reasons why does it need to be revered?
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Someone up there drank all the Kool Aide.

    Here's the link that I added by the edit coming in after you quoted the post. The only rape rooms were the ones we set up.
    Bush, "rape rooms," and the Iraq prison scandal. - Slate Magazine
    I'm glad you see me as 'up there', but spare me the lunatic fringe version of history.

  3. #453
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Arguments about sanctions in the 90's (a debate in and of itself) do not absolve Saddam of directly and intentionally starving 400k children in the years just prior to the invasion.

    Stop distracting and accept reality. When you've accepted reality, adjust your crystal ball.
    I did say it absolved him. Again, stay within the scope if what I've actually claimed.


    The Level of Killing

    In considering the criteria that would justify humanitarian intervention, the most important, as noted, is the level of killing: was genocide or comparable mass slaughter underway or imminent? Brutal as Saddam Hussein's reign had been, the scope of the Iraqi government's killing in March 2003 was not of the exceptional and dire magnitude that would justify humanitarian intervention. We have no illusions about Saddam Hussein's vicious inhumanity. Having devoted extensive time and effort to documenting his atrocities, we estimate that in the last twenty-five years of Ba`th Party rule the Iraqi government murdered or "disappeared" some quarter of a million Iraqis, if not more. In addition, one must consider such abuses as Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iranian soldiers. However, by the time of the March 2003 invasion, Saddam Hussein's killing had ebbed.

    (Snip)


    Conclusion

    In sum, the invasion of Iraq failed to meet the test for a humanitarian intervention. Most important, the killing in Iraq at the time was not of the exceptional nature that would justify such intervention. In addition, intervention was not the last reasonable option to stop Iraqi atrocities. Intervention was not motivated primarily by humanitarian concerns. It was not conducted in a way that maximized compliance with international humanitarian law. It was not approved by the Security Council. And while at the time it was launched it was reasonable to believe that the Iraqi people would be better off, it was not designed or carried out with the needs of Iraqis foremost in mind.




    War in Iraq: Not a Humanitarian Intervention | Human Rights Watch

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #454
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    spare me the lunatic fringe version of history.
    Abuse by the US govt is well documented. Calling it "fringe" does not make it fiction.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  5. #455
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    No, Abu Graib was a crime and prosecuted as such. Unfortunately, crime occurs in the civilian world as well as in the military. The difference between us and Saddam is that we treated such as a crime and not state policy.

    I don't remember GWBush, the first torturer being prosecuted for OKing torture by the military. I just remember the crap rolls downhill to England and Graner because their Commander in Chief didn't have cojones to admit it was under Presidential orders. It was a "War of Choice." GWBush's, the first moron's, choice.

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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    But if the act of that person is for selfish reasons why does it need to be revered?
    We should appreciate those who serve us, whatever an individual's reasoning may be. It's not for me to judge you; yet, I can appreciate support. For example, we tip a waiter even though it is his job to do what he did. It seems you remain stuck in a sort of false dichotomy of absolutism. Having dispelled the notion of altruism, you now seem to believe that people should not appreciate anything. Shake off the absolutism.

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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Women were better off under Saddam...and so too were the children. I'm stunned that there are people here who still buy the BS they were sold in 2003. Jesus ****ing Christ. There is ample resource out there to get real information. Go get it. Quit being stupid ignorant drones.

    Contrary to popular imagination, Iraqi women enjoyed far more freedom under Saddam Hussein’s secular Ba’athist government than women in other Middle Eastern countries. In fact, equal rights for women were enshrined in Iraq’s Constitution in 1970, including the right to vote, run for political office, access education and own property. Today, these rights are all but absent under the U.S.-backed government of Nouri al-Maliki.

    ...The U.S.-led invasion in 2003 exacerbated the desperation of Iraqi women and girls to unprecedented levels. It left them vulnerable to an underground sex industry and subject to severe methods of punishment by an increasingly religious post-invasion government.

    A comprehensive examination into sex trafficking by the Organization of Women’s Freedom in Iraq (OWFI) explains, “Ousting the government and all systems of security left Iraqi cities vulnerable in the following months to gangs of men who kidnapped women and girls and assaulted them sexually.”

    Many of the kidnapped were sold to nearby countries, as demonstrated in 2004 when houses used to “store” girls before they were purchased were uncovered. Though it is difficult to determine exactly how many women have been victims of sex trafficking, OWFI estimates that in the first seven years after the invasion, 4,000 Iraqi women and girls went missing, twenty percent of whom were under the age of 18.
    Muftah » Was Life for Iraqi Women Better Under Saddam?

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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I'm glad you see me as 'up there', but spare me the lunatic fringe version of history.
    What's lunacy is what you're defending. You really think we did right by Iraq?

  9. #459
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Abuse by the US govt is well documented. Calling it "fringe" does not make it fiction.
    Abu Graib was a crime and prosecuted as such. Believing otherwise is to believe in conspiracy theory of a most ridiculous sort.

  10. #460
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    What's lunacy is what you're defending. You really think we did right by Iraq?
    Why are you changing the subject? Let me guess... you can't provide any real evidence whatsoever that the crime occurring at Abu Graib was ordered from above? Typical conspiracy theory tactic... when shown to be full of crap, divert and change subject.

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