View Poll Results: HOW MANY IRAQIS DIED?

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  • 1,000-5,000

    2 3.92%
  • 5,000-50,000

    2 3.92%
  • 50,000-100,000

    12 23.53%
  • 100,000-1,000,000+

    35 68.63%
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Thread: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

  1. #401
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The region has not been rid of, but merely traded one for another. The result will be the same in the end. You can't give this. People must want it. Do it themselves. It is one thing to help those fighting and another thing to have the hubris t think you can give it to them.
    This is nonsense and always has been. You protestors and supporters all belong on the moon. Thee type slogans ignore the facts of the region. It is painfully and violently clear that they want and have always wanted a form of democracy. The problem, which you see everyday in the headlines, is that their tribes are unnaturally smashed together. The idea of democracy has to be figured out while they are coming to terms of living together under a system that doesn't use force and oppression to make them behave. The ultimate fix is to re-draw the borders. It is this that can't be forced. It is this that they have to do on their own. When it came to Saddam Hussein, it was the West that saw his rise. It was the West that maintained his rise under Cold War system of "stability." It was the West that supported his throne after the Gulf War rather than deal with the inevitable. And so it was the West that was responsible for finally getting rid of him after his population proved unable to free themselves.

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  2. #402
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    He was not saint, a terrible and brutal tyrant to be sure, but we killed more, much more by invading. Sorry.
    You made a claim. The claim was FALSE. I have made this obvious. The fact is, Saddam killed hundreds of thousands (children, nonetheless) just prior to the invasion.

    I will now correct another gross belch of ignorance on your part: that the coalition killed more than Saddam. FALSE. Saddam killed 500k Iraqis by invading Iran, 200k Kurds by genocide, 50k Marsh Arabs by genocide and 400k children by starvation. These events alone average to 50k per year of his dictatorship. The US has not killed over 1m since the invasion and the US has not killed 50k per year. Compared to Saddam, the US has barely killed anyone.


    You're welcome.

  3. #403
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    It's a Corporatocracy and "War is good business and business is good." That would be a $700 billion Military Offense budget in a World with no serious threats.
    This goes back to Eisenhower...not Bush in 2003. Whining about a war almost fifty years later as if it created this is ignorant. Protest better. This is why guys like me will always be able to dismiss protestors. They simply don't really know what they are protesting and in the end they think their protests mattered.

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  4. #404
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    He allowed the starvation to thumb his nose at the West.
    He did not "allow" starvation. He sold food, from the food-for-oil program, sufficient to nourish 400k children. We have the evidence: the food he sold in other countries.

    He intentionally, without the help of anyone, with purpose and intent, starved 400k children and used the proceeds to institutionalize rape, torture and slaughter.

  5. #405
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Hardly. Civilians have still been killed during this time, just as they had before. Only now they got to kill even more. We pretended nothing. You can't beat Tarzan by fighting Jane.
    And they are going to keep killing until they get to the other side. That's their course. You can forgive Europeans their quest to start World Wars over tribe and territory, but senseless slaughter in the Middle East demands that we keep with the dictators? Do you realize that after the World Wars, Europe's monarchies fell into history and democracies emerged? Some could argue that insisting that Muslims can only behave under dictators is bigotry and short sighted. Perhaps if they re-drew their borders like Europe did, the tribes would have less to slaughter about.

    You are looking at this incredibly wrong. Look at it in historical terms and you won't really see the mess you think you are seeing. Every region on Earth has sorted itself out except the MENA. Only the MENA has been disallowed their path until 2003 when we removed "our" dictator and provided opportunity. This is their path.

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  6. #406
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    He did not "allow" starvation. He sold food, from the food-for-oil program, sufficient to nourish 400k children. We have the evidence: the food he sold in other countries.

    He intentionally, without the help of anyone, with purpose and intent, starved 400k children and used the proceeds to institutionalize rape, torture and slaughter.
    Allow is just a word. He could have easily not allowed it and fed his people. It wasn't the point, nor does it matter either way. Iraq is and was never only about Iraq.

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  7. #407
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    This is nonsense and always has been. You protestors and supporters all belong on the moon. Thee type slogans ignore the facts of the region. It is painfully and violently clear that they want and have always wanted a form of democracy. The problem, which you see everyday in the headlines, is that their tribes are unnaturally smashed together. The idea of democracy has to be figured out while they are coming to terms of living together under a system that doesn't use force and oppression to make them behave. The ultimate fix is to re-draw the borders. It is this that can't be forced. It is this that they have to do on their own. When it came to Saddam Hussein, it was the West that saw his rise. It was the West that maintained his rise under Cold War system of "stability." It was the West that supported his throne after the Gulf War rather than deal with the inevitable. And so it was the West that was responsible for finally getting rid of him after his population proved unable to free themselves.
    I've ignored nothing. It is also hubris to assume you know more than others. I have listened to your arguments, I know the history, and have tried to explain why I disagree. Invasion did not help our efforts, but hurt them.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #408
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You made a claim. The claim was FALSE. I have made this obvious. The fact is, Saddam killed hundreds of thousands (children, nonetheless) just prior to the invasion.

    I will now correct another gross belch of ignorance on your part: that the coalition killed more than Saddam. FALSE. Saddam killed 500k Iraqis by invading Iran, 200k Kurds by genocide, 50k Marsh Arabs by genocide and 400k children by starvation. These events alone average to 50k per year of his dictatorship. The US has not killed over 1m since the invasion and the US has not killed 50k per year. Compared to Saddam, the US has barely killed anyone.


    You're welcome.
    No, I made a proper and factual claim the deaths were not high prior to invasion. Not nearly high effort to justify invasion. Your trying to pretend some vp bad was worse than it was, which is sad considering the really was bad enough. But Saddam was not killing in numbers to justify invasion. He just wasn't.

    And the rest you note was long before 2003. As I said, we watched that and did nothing. We waited until long after it was over to add to the total. I'm sure they were real grateful.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #409
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Allow is just a word. He could have easily not allowed it and fed his people. It wasn't the point, nor does it matter either way. Iraq is and was never only about Iraq.
    Of course it was never only about Iraq. Who can ignore context?

    But I don't like the implications of "allowed", as if it was not DIRECTLY his fault.

  10. #410
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    And they are going to keep killing until they get to the other side. That's their course. You can forgive Europeans their quest to start World Wars over tribe and territory, but senseless slaughter in the Middle East demands that we keep with the dictators? Do you realize that after the World Wars, Europe's monarchies fell into history and democracies emerged? Some could argue that insisting that Muslims can only behave under dictators is bigotry and short sighted. Perhaps if they re-drew their borders like Europe did, the tribes would have less to slaughter about.

    You are looking at this incredibly wrong. Look at it in historical terms and you won't really see the mess you think you are seeing. Every region on Earth has sorted itself out except the MENA. Only the MENA has been disallowed their path until 2003 when we removed "our" dictator and provided opportunity. This is their path.
    Democracy doesn't fix everything. Remember Palestinian elections? The problem isn't something we can fix by spreading democracy at gun point.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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