View Poll Results: HOW MANY IRAQIS DIED?

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  • 1,000-5,000

    2 3.92%
  • 5,000-50,000

    2 3.92%
  • 50,000-100,000

    12 23.53%
  • 100,000-1,000,000+

    35 68.63%
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Thread: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

  1. #31
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I think in their body count they choose to add in all the dead caused by the Islomo-extremists that continue to kill people. The rationale of course being that if Bush hadnt gone to war they wouldnt be killing Iraqis. And OK...you can even cede that point, but then you would HAVE to go to door number two which says yes...but if Bush hadnt gone to war with Iraq Saddam Hussein would still be in power and his own personal record of genocide is rather impressive as well. Better to just stick with the talking points about the eeeeevil George Bush killing Iraqis and be done with it.
    The problem with your rationale is that we don't go barging into every Middle Eastern dictator's house because of a genocide which doesn't really affect us. So why Saddam? What made him worse than Gaddafi? Mubarak? The Mullahs? Why is it that we decided to go to Iraq and not any other place where there is a dictatorship? Next door to us we have the Cubans, in the 80s we had the Salvadoreans, the Costa Ricans. So why is it we decided that Saddam's genocide was somehow worse than any of the genocides we have next door?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  2. #32
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The problem with your rationale is that we don't go barging into every Middle Eastern dictator's house because of a genocide which doesn't really affect us. So why Saddam? What made him worse than Gaddafi? Mubarak? The Mullahs? Why is it that we decided to go to Iraq and not any other place where there is a dictatorship? Next door to us we have the Cubans, in the 80s we had the Salvadoreans, the Costa Ricans. So why is it we decided that Saddam's genocide was somehow worse than any of the genocides we have next door?

    There are several factors that established Iraq as a top priority.

    1. The magnitude of the genocide and that he committed genocide twice.
    2. The existence of natural resources capable of rapid development.
    3. The violation of 17 chapter 7 unscrs.
    4. Institutionalized rape.
    5. His previous invasions of neighbors.
    6. Fake WMD program.
    7. Geography.

    There are more reasons, but I hope that you might begin to understand context, priorities and how decisions are made. I'm sorry you were in the dark about this, without a clue as to why the US would choose Iraq over other countries in which to intervene. Perhaps now you've at least some idea.

  3. #33
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    It certainly couldn't have anything to do with all those Iraqis living on somebody's OIL, or not? Let's see. Iraqis got sand. Iraqis got sand fleas. Iraqis got scorpions. Iraqis got OIL. I wonder if coinky - dink is operating subliminally here, or not?
    It is all about oil. Would we have cared if Iraq had invaded Kuwait in the first place if it weren't for oil? Certainly not as much as we (the coalition) did. You are a bit all over the board with your agenda. I thought the topic was the Iraqi civilian deaths and your assertion that they died because of the WMD claims.

    Has my point be so persuasive that you have abandoned that and gone on to oil?

  4. #34
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    There are several factors that established Iraq as a top priority.

    1. The magnitude of the genocide and that he committed genocide twice.
    2. The existence of natural resources capable of rapid development.
    3. The violation of 17 chapter 7 unscrs.
    4. Institutionalized rape.
    5. His previous invasions of neighbors.
    6. Fake WMD program.
    7. Geography.

    There are more reasons, but I hope that you might begin to understand context, priorities and how decisions are made. I'm sorry you were in the dark about this, without a clue as to why the US would choose Iraq over other countries in which to intervene. Perhaps now you've at least some idea.
    1, 3, 4, 6, and 7 aren't unique to Iraq by any stretch of the imagination. Even adding the results of his genocides together, there have been genocides in Africa three times as large which barely received notice from the international community, let alone action.

    Most of your examples incorporate the assumption that "the realities of power" justify intrusion in Iraq and not elsewhere, when your opponent's question suggested they did not. In that sense, your posts amount to two people asserting, "No it does not," and "Yes it does." Neither side bothered to just come out and explained why their belief was the correct one.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 06-12-13 at 12:33 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    1, 3, 4, 6, and 7 aren't unique to Iraq.
    So? All those things together make Iraq the top choice. Come on, this isn't rocket science.

    To see if you've grasped the concept of context and priorities in decision making, I'll give you a little quiz: Who's next on the list?


    ps. Who else has 1. and 3. ? And, actually, Iraq's geography (7.) is, in fact, unique to Iraq (though, of course, geographic considerations are always part of the priority setting).
    Last edited by ecofarm; 06-12-13 at 12:33 PM.

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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    So? All those things together make Iraq the top choice. Come on, this isn't rocket science.

    To see if you've grasped the concept of context and priorities in decision making, I'll give you a little quiz: Who's next on the list?


    ps. Who else has 1. and 3. ? And, actually, Iraq's geography (7.) is, in fact, unique to Iraq (though, of course, geographic considerations are always part of the priority setting).
    I amended my post to point out that you argued, "the realities of power" justified intrusion into Iraq.

    There's no reason to take such an assertion at face value.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  7. #37
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I amended my post to point out that you argued, "the realities of power" justified intrusion into Iraq.

    There's no reason to take such an assertion at face value.
    I don't get why you are confused. I was answering a specific question: ~"Why Iraq instead of other places?" This question leaves aside the question of whether one should be involved, and moves to choice. Thus, I provided some of the many factors as to why Iraq was obviously the top priority. Given that invasion is an option and the question is priorities, I cannot understand how anyone could still be wandering about in the dark regarding the decision to invade Iraq and not another country.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 06-12-13 at 12:48 PM.

  8. #38
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    How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The problem with your rationale is that we don't go barging into every Middle Eastern dictator's house because of a genocide which doesn't really affect us. So why Saddam? What made him worse than Gaddafi? Mubarak? The Mullahs? Why is it that we decided to go to Iraq and not any other place where there is a dictatorship? Next door to us we have the Cubans, in the 80s we had the Salvadoreans, the Costa Ricans. So why is it we decided that Saddam's genocide was somehow worse than any of the genocides we have next door?
    The difference was that none of those other people you cited have ignored 17 UN resolutions demanding an accounting of his WMD stockpiles, were regularly engaging in acts of genocide, and were supporting global terrorism.

  9. #39
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I don't get why you are confused. I was answering a specific question: ~"Why Iraq instead of other places?" This question leaves aside the question of whether one should be involved, and moves to choice. Thus, I provided some of the many factors as to why Iraq is obviously the top priority. Given that invasion is an option and the question is priorities, I cannot understand how anyone could be still wandering about in the dark regarding the decision to invade Iraq and not another country.
    The "other places" dimension of that phrase was a rhetorical device to alert people of the idea that the true reasons of intruding into Iraq were vulgar, base, or otherwise ignoble -- the kinder way of putting that is, "the realities of power."

    You ignored the rhetorical element and answered the question literally.

    Which is acceptable, since nobody controls the terms in which you argue. However, the indirection of both arguments made them disappointing.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The "other places" dimension of that phrase was a rhetorical device to alert people of the idea that the true reasons of intruding into Iraq were vulgar, base, or otherwise ignoble -- the kinder way of putting that is, "the realities of power."

    You ignored the rhetorical element and answered the question literally.

    Which is acceptable, since nobody controls the terms in which you argue. However, the indirection of both arguments made them disappointing.

    If you want to change the subject now, fine. We can have that discussion. However, you cannot change the subject that I was specifically addressing. That would be taking my answer out of context and illegitimately applying it to a different argument.

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