View Poll Results: HOW MANY IRAQIS DIED?

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  • 1,000-5,000

    2 3.92%
  • 5,000-50,000

    2 3.92%
  • 50,000-100,000

    12 23.53%
  • 100,000-1,000,000+

    35 68.63%
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Thread: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

  1. #371
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What's dishonest is equating that to WWII Germany. Pissing in the wind isn't equal to a power that had the world on the brink.
    That isn't what I wrote as I have no interest in comparing the two. As for the rest: "how is denying that Iraq was violating the cease fire and firing on Coalition aircraft not a kind of dishonesty?" You say that we we weren't attacked by Iraq when I suspect that you meant that we weren't attacked enough.

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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    He continued the wars, he's handing out guns for the purposes of war and killing, AND he's interfering in ME affairs. He is the antithesis to the liberal party I would think, so it's interesting how you kind of give him a pass.
    Actually Obama did the best thing he could do in Iraq which was absolutely nothing. Bush had already signed an agreement to withdraw troops. All Obama had to do was not screw it up...which he managed to pull off. Unfortunately, Bush did not leave a playbook for a way ahead in Afghanistan so Obama has been floundering. He initially copied the Bush sure which Candidate Obama was opposed to. The problem with that was that his 'surge' was not accomplanied by a specific mission and as a result, we have spent 5 years there not really going after the Taliban, not really having a plan to leave, not really knowing WTF we are doing. And his biggest PR concern there is the Afghanistan mission is the one he said he agreed with and should have engaged in so he cant even blame that one on Bush.

    As a Commander in Chief he has pretty much copied the Bush playbook on everything knowing that the mindless liberals that support him wouldnt give half a damn if he ran against it or not.

  3. #373
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    That isn't what I wrote as I have no interest in comparing the two. As for the rest: "how is denying that Iraq was violating the cease fire and firing on Coalition aircraft not a kind of dishonesty?" You say that we we weren't attacked by Iraq when I suspect that you meant that we weren't attacked enough.
    I never said it was. I said equating them to WWII Germany is.

    However, neither of those reasons justified invasion. They couldn't hit us, and the violations were UN violations. Only the UN had the authority to enforce them. Besides, we let them violate a lot when it suited us. we were not afraid of Iraq.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #374
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, just responsible for what happened. No invasion, no 100 k plus deaths. It's really simple.
    So tell us. How many of those resources that the insurgents would of been used against the US or Israel had they not been expended in Iraq and Afghanistan? How much money, munitions and effort did the Iraqi invasion cause to be expended there instead of focused towards America itself?

    Does it such ass that troops get killed and maimed there? Sure as hell does. But then again, if that resource is used against them there, it is not available to be used against US civilians. It is part of being in the military. If a US Citizen is going to die from an attack from outside sources, it is every military members sworn duty to die before a single civilian is hurt. It is one of the reasons they exist. They volunteer to put themselves in harms way so that that harm is not focused against the ones they love and care about back home.

    We were sitting on Saddam for 12+ years. During that time, he didn't do much. How much longer and how much more should we spend sitting on him to ensure his good behavior? How many of our own resources were tied up with sitting on him?

    For every bullet, bomb, bomber, etc used in Iraq and Afghanistan to kill other Afghans and Iraqis, how many US Citizens, Brits, Israelis, etc would of died if those resources hadn't been used up in Iraq and would of been used elsewhere instead? We don't know, we can't know, because we forced those resources to used there instead.

    Does it suck that so many Iraqis died? Sure, but, from our point of view, better that some Iraqis die than school children and innocents in the States or in the countries of our allies die instead.

    So, yeah, no invasion may equal no 100K+ Iraqis dead. But then again, that could of meant thousands of Americans/Allies dead instead. We chose to have them use those resources there instead of here, so we will never know what would of happened had we not invaded, but since all those involved against us and against each other there could of used those resources here instead of there, I choose to believe that that choice was a good one.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  5. #375
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Saddam killed over 50k per year, averaging just the big stuff over his dictatorship.

    You couldn't possible be more nave. Saddam was no danger, no threat, and it has only cost a couple of trillion dollars of hard earned taxpayer dollars being diverted into the Corporate Military/Industrial Complex to get rid of him. Now we have to get rid of the stench of death or deny it, as you've chosen to do.

  6. #376
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Continuing isn't the same as starting. Once the damage was done, merely leaving was not really an option (regardless of who was president).

    The problem for too many people is that they insist that Bush started anything. Bush merely inherited this Frankenstein's Monster region and reacted to the symptoms. 9/11, Osama, Al-Queda, Hussein, Gaddafi, the House of Saud, Hezbollah, Assad, etc. are all symptoms of an entire civilization failing before your very eyes. The consequence of that failure (under Muslim leadership) is the creation of Islamic terrorist organizations that seek "foreign devils" to blame for their own culture's doing. The Middle East was a powder keg and 9/11 was merely the Arch Duke Ferdinand of the situation. The later Arab Spring, where the populations finally erupted over their dictators, is and was always in the cards. Tribal slaughter and religious excitement was always in the making. It merely needed the push that Iraqi voters in 2010 gave them. I realize that war protestors demand that Iraq remain a black hole for which no Muslim can see, but this just isn't practical to the media outlet frenzy world we live in. It's amazing how many people on the Left continue to pretend in falsehoods over this region and even more amazing is the Right's complaint and fear about the Arab Spring that screamed "democracy" and not "caliphate." Today, both ignorantly complain about Syria even as it systematically pulls every nation in its surrounding proximity towards reaction. Bigger wars start this way. Even World Wars start this way. Perhaps we should wait until the small event turns into something grand so that we can send hundreds of thousands of troops to their deaths in a serious war years from now. After all, that seems to be what people demand in order to feel "justified" in military action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And who said democrats were liberal?
    The same kind of folk that say Republicans are Conservative. And yes, Liberals have and continue to give Obama his because "Hope and Change" continues to be the fantasy. The great Bush critic has merely turned out to be a Bush systems supporter and a whistle blower's nightmare. Bombing Pakistan with escalating UAV strikes, NSA surveillances, mobey from lobbyists, and worsening transparency are just a few of the issues that "Hope and Change" defines. Personally, I don't care either way about that. I voted for McCain and then I voted last year for Obama. Not because I believe in none of their BS, but because I believe in the truth of the world. But the greatest joke is to watch Republicans and Conservatives criticize what they used to support as Democrats and Liberals support today what they used to pathetically whine about. "Hope and Change"....."Camelot"....what is it with Liberals and their fantasy White Houses?

    The sooner Americans recognize that the majority of them have no representation in Washington the sooner things will change. Like economic recessions, political decrepitness is historically cyclical.

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  7. #377
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    You couldn't possible be more nave. Saddam was no danger, no threat, and it has only cost a couple of trillion dollars of hard earned taxpayer dollars being diverted into the Corporate Military/Industrial Complex to get rid of him. Now we have to get rid of the stench of death or deny it, as you've chosen to do.
    How much was it costing us, to the same people, to sit on him for 12+ years? How long would we have had to sustain that into the future to keep him under control?

    Read post #374, the same statements and questions are no directed towards you also.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  8. #378
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    So tell us. How many of those resources that the insurgents would of been used against the US or Israel had they not been expended in Iraq and Afghanistan? How much money, munitions and effort did the Iraqi invasion cause to be expended there instead of focused towards America itself?

    Does it such ass that troops get killed and maimed there? Sure as hell does. But then again, if that resource is used against them there, it is not available to be used against US civilians. It is part of being in the military. If a US Citizen is going to die from an attack from outside sources, it is every military members sworn duty to die before a single civilian is hurt. It is one of the reasons they exist. They volunteer to put themselves in harms way so that that harm is not focused against the ones they love and care about back home.

    We were sitting on Saddam for 12+ years. During that time, he didn't do much. How much longer and how much more should we spend sitting on him to ensure his good behavior? How many of our own resources were tied up with sitting on him?

    For every bullet, bomb, bomber, etc used in Iraq and Afghanistan to kill other Afghans and Iraqis, how many US Citizens, Brits, Israelis, etc would of died if those resources hadn't been used up in Iraq and would of been used elsewhere instead? We don't know, we can't know, because we forced those resources to used there instead.

    Does it suck that so many Iraqis died? Sure, but, from our point of view, better that some Iraqis die than school children and innocents in the States or in the countries of our allies die instead.

    So, yeah, no invasion may equal no 100K+ Iraqis dead. But then again, that could of meant thousands of Americans/Allies dead instead. We chose to have them use those resources there instead of here, so we will never know what would of happened had we not invaded, but since all those involved against us and against each other there could of used those resources here instead of there, I choose to believe that that choice was a good one.
    Very little. It took them 8 years between the first towers attack and the second, and used no wmds. Cato wrote a nice piece on why hadn't Saddam already destroyed us. Answer, he couldn't. Iraq was a huge overreaction. Just what bin Laden hoped for. It allowed the the opportunity to hurt us that they didn't have, and as the CIA noted some years ago, the training they received in Iraq due to our invasion will allow for killing around the world for years to come. We could not have been more reckless.

    So no, your premise is mistaken. More have and will die due to or hubris than would have had we exercised restraint and handled the situation appropriately.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #379
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The problem for too many people is that they insist that Bush started anything. Bush merely inherited this Frankenstein's Monster region and reacted to the symptoms. 9/11, Osama, Al-Queda, Hussein, Gaddafi, the House of Saud, Hezbollah, Assad, etc. are all symptoms of an entire civilization failing before your very eyes. The consequence of that failure (under Muslim leadership) is the creation of Islamic terrorist organizations that seek "foreign devils" to blame for their own culture's doing. The Middle East was a powder keg and 9/11 was merely the Arch Duke Ferdinand of the situation. The later Arab Spring, where the populations finally erupted over their dictators, is and was always in the cards. Tribal slaughter and religious excitement was always in the making. It merely needed the push that Iraqi voters in 2010 gave them. I realize that war protestors demand that Iraq remain a black hole for which no Muslim can see, but this just isn't practical to the media outlet frenzy world we live in. It's amazing how many people on the Left continue to pretend in falsehoods over this region and even more amazing is the Right's complaint and fear about the Arab Spring that screamed "democracy" and not "caliphate." Today, both ignorantly complain about Syria even as it systematically pulls every nation in its surrounding proximity towards reaction. Bigger wars start this way. Even World Wars start this way. Perhaps we should wait until the small event turns into something grand so that we can send hundreds of thousands of troops to their deaths in a serious war years from now. After all, that seems to be what people demand in order to feel "justified" in military action.



    The same kind of folk that say Republicans are Conservative. And yes, Liberals have and continue to give Obama his because "Hope and Change" continues to be the fantasy. The great Bush critic has merely turned out to be a Bush systems supporter and a whistle blower's nightmare. Bombing Pakistan with escalating UAV strikes, NSA surveillances, mobey from lobbyists, and worsening transparency are just a few of the issues that "Hope and Change" defines. Personally, I don't care either way about that. I voted for McCain and then I voted last year for Obama. Not because I believe in none of their BS, but because I believe in the truth of the world. But the greatest joke is to watch Republicans and Conservatives criticize what they used to support as Democrats and Liberals support today what they used to pathetically whine about. "Hope and Change"....."Camelot"....what is it with Liberals and their fantasy White Houses?

    The sooner Americans recognize that the majority of them have no representation in Washington the sooner things will change. Like economic recessions, political decrepitness is historically cyclical.
    I don't know anyone who says Bush started EVERYTHING. It is enough that he invaded Iraq on a pretext, a reckless and costly act.

    And f you want to argue there's little difference between democrats and republicans, I won't argue with that.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #380
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    re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    You couldn't possible be more nave. Saddam was no danger, no threat, and it has only cost a couple of trillion dollars of hard earned taxpayer dollars being diverted into the Corporate Military/Industrial Complex to get rid of him. Now we have to get rid of the stench of death or deny it, as you've chosen to do.
    Or simply accept the path laid before us and stop behaving as if ignorance is a religion of worship. Do you not see the entire Middle East erupting? This continual focus on Saddam Hussein as if his was an island set aside from the MENA is tired and pathetic. It's as pathetic as supporters who still insist on WMD. Only fools continue this obsession to pretend that Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Tunisia, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc. are separate issues. This is a civilization cracked apart by bad borders containing bad tribal blood living under religious and fascist style oppression seeking "foreign devils" to blame. - Hence 9/11 as a decades long culmination of exceedingly organizing terrorist activity where memberships come from all of the nations in this region.

    Stench of death? Corporate Military/Industrial Complex? Without dealing with Iraq I guess this wouldn't exist. Death and militancy are products of being sucked out into the world. Isolationism is the cure to both. Of course, this merely means sitting around watching our trades and economy disruptions as people like Europeans create World Wars and force our emergence if only to protect our interests. We could do nothing and wait for the Middle East's tribes to develop nuclear weapons as they bicker and cripple the world's economy. That way we can send millions to their deaths.

    MSgt
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