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Thread: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

  1. #61
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Just to understand, are you saying here that the biological criteria you put forth as the personhood criteria is superceded by a mother's intent to carry a child and thus the intent is what grants personhood to the child in-utero?
    I got that he was pointing out the inherent contradiction in the pro-choice position that one has no right to judge the choices of others.

    That's not fair to state someone elses intent or preference in regard to their thinking. How do you know what he's thinking?

    I disagree because I see it as a way to reveal an inconsistancy in the pro-choice position--not to malign anyone in particular.
    Actually, now that I have seen who the OP was (he is on my ignore list for making very hateful and homophobic and bigoted remarks), I am more inclined to believe that there is nothing more here than a feeble and transparent attempt to force agreement with one of his "positions".

    And yes, one only has to look at the law to see that the mother's intention alone can grant personhood to the fetus. Otherwise, there would be no provision to charge an assailant with murder for a fetus being murdered along with the mother as in the Peterson case. The intent can grant personhood to the fetus but it is not necessary for that personhood if the fetus is carried to a stage of development that warrants personhood to be granted. Further, once granted, personhood can never be stripped of a person, so any egregious argument that one such as Schaivo wasn't a person is just ignorant and a pathetic grasp at straws.

    And I still hold, now from past experience and not just reading the tone and direction the thread took from the onset, that the intention is not to have a frank discussion about a disparity in a belief, but a very ugly attempt at both maligning a position/group AND a transparent grasp at forcing others to agree with him. There is a reason this person is the ONLY person on my ignore list.

  2. #62
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Actually, now that I have seen who the OP was (he is on my ignore list for making very hateful and homophobic and bigoted remarks), I am more inclined to believe that there is nothing more here than a feeble and transparent attempt to force agreement with one of his "positions".

    And yes, one only has to look at the law to see that the mother's intention alone can grant personhood to the fetus. Otherwise, there would be no provision to charge an assailant with murder for a fetus being murdered along with the mother as in the Peterson case. The intent can grant personhood to the fetus but it is not necessary for that personhood if the fetus is carried to a stage of development that warrants personhood to be granted. Further, once granted, personhood can never be stripped of a person, so any egregious argument that one such as Schaivo wasn't a person is just ignorant and a pathetic grasp at straws.

    And I still hold, now from past experience and not just reading the tone and direction the thread took from the onset, that the intention is not to have a frank discussion about a disparity in a belief, but a very ugly attempt at both maligning a position/group AND a transparent grasp at forcing others to agree with him.
    Well...as one who has been accused falsely of specific negative intention, I refuse to do it to others. If there was evidence within the thread itself...that would be different IMO....if someone is that "raging" their true personality would out eventually.

  3. #63
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Well...as one who has been accused falsely of specific negative intention, I refuse to do it to others. If there was evidence within the thread itself...that would be different IMO.
    I am not asking you to agree with me or see it. Besides, why would you bother to look for anything inconvenient to your position. I would expect you to admit seeing the Virgin Mary in a bowl of spaghettio's before admitting fault with someone's pro liar position.

    Now, would you like to respond to my answer to your question about intent and personhood?

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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    And yes, one only has to look at the law to see that the mother's intention alone can grant personhood to the fetus.
    I am curious as to what case law you take that from, though I am even more curious as to this: If the mothers intent can endow the right to life upon her unborn, wouldn't it logically follow that she could not then revoke it?

    Unalienable, the right to life is. Once endowed by it's creator (its mother, by Humanist/Atheist reasoning), by definition she can not change her mind and act accordingly without violating the unalienable right she gave.

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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I would expect you to admit seeing the Virgin Mary in a bowl of spaghettio's before admitting fault with someone's pro liar position.
    I thought I saw the Virgin Marry in a taco once....so I bit off hr head

    Turns out it actually was a “holy” taco, too, ‘cuz it dripped sauce all over my lap!

    We now have 4 outlooks on abortion: Life, Choice, Abortion, Birth and Liar.

  6. #66
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I am not asking you to agree with me or see it. Besides, why would you bother to look for anything inconvenient to your position. I would expect you to admit seeing the Virgin Mary in a bowl of spaghettio's before admitting fault with someone's pro liar position.
    See now...there's the jallman we all know and love!

    Now, would you like to respond to my answer to your question about intent and personhood?
    Sure.

    The intent can grant personhood to the fetus but it is not necessary for that personhood if the fetus is carried to a stage of development that warrants personhood to be granted.
    Who grants this "personhood" at that biological stage? What body of law or medical definition? As I see it the law allows this distinction of mother's intent through the whole pregnancy.


    Further, once granted, personhood can never be stripped of a person, so any egregious argument that one such as Schaivo wasn't a person is just ignorant and a pathetic grasp at straws.
    I agree with you on the Schiavo comment.

  7. #67
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I am curious as to what case law you take that from, though I am even more curious as to this: If the mothers intent can endow the right to life upon her unborn, wouldn't it logically follow that she could not then revoke it?

    Unalienable, the right to life is. Once endowed by it's creator (its mother, by Humanist/Atheist reasoning), by definition she can not change her mind and act accordingly without violating the unalienable right she gave.
    Actually, I took that reasoning from several cases...the fact that a person can be charged with murder if a fetus is aborted through an action not of the mother's (as in the Lacey and Scott Peterson case).

    Here is the quandary that I am posed with: if the mother can grant personhood at one point, can she revoke it at another? I believe that once the fetus achieves biological requirements for personhood, the choice is out of the mother's hands and personhood can never be revoked by law or circumstance. However, I suppose until that point, it is the mother's discretion and her prerogative to change her mind as often as she likes.

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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    See now...there's the jallman we all know and love!
    I aim to please, milady.

    Who grants this "personhood" at that biological stage? What body of law or medical definition? As I see it the law allows this distinction of mother's intent through the whole pregnancy.
    The law technically does give her discretion through the whole pregnancy and that, I cannot agree with. I have posted many times the scientific evidence indicating that the fetus has no awareness, cognition, salience, nor sentience before the 21st week of pregnancy. We can reference those other threads if you like, but I am sure you remember them.

    At such a time as the fetus can show the mental capabilities of a human being (baby), then it is has a definitive right to life like any other human. The mother's wishes are no longer all important because her rights end where the new life's begins. Position internal or external of the womb has NEVER been a consideration of mine on this issue.

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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Actually, I took that reasoning from several cases...the fact that a person can be charged with murder if a fetus is aborted through an action not of the mother's (as in the Lacey and Scott Peterson case).

    Here is the quandary that I am posed with: if the mother can grant personhood at one point, can she revoke it at another? I believe that once the fetus achieves biological requirements for personhood, the choice is out of the mother's hands and personhood can never be revoked by law or circumstance. However, I suppose until that point, it is the mother's discretion and her prerogative to change her mind as often as she likes.
    It seems that we are both asking the same question.

    If she can revoke that right, then is it really unalienable?
    If she can revoke that right, what precedent does this establish for her rights to then be revoked by another in turn?

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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I aim to please, milady.



    The law technically does give her discretion through the whole pregnancy and that, I cannot agree with. I have posted many times the scientific evidence indicating that the fetus has no awareness, cognition, salience, nor sentience before the 21st week of pregnancy. We can reference those other threads if you like, but I am sure you remember them.

    At such a time as the fetus can show the mental capabilities of a human being (baby), then it is has a definitive right to life like any other human. The mother's wishes are no longer all important because her rights end where the new life's begins. Position internal or external of the womb has NEVER been a consideration of mine on this issue.
    So basically you are in the same boat as pro-lifers in that the laws governing abortion are too broad. The difference is that you have a different line that you draw for the when the "right" of life begins.

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