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Thread: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

  1. #471
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes, but it depends on the gene being reproduced. The lower rate at which this happens, the less time the gene will remain in the pool.
    Not really. It would still pass on for generations without any outward expression.

    Let's look at colorblindness. This is a recessive trait linked to the X chromosome. It's more prevalent in men because we only have one X chromosome so for men, it expresses itself as a dominant trait.

    If every man with the flawed X (outward signs of colorblindness) didn't reproduce, then there would never be another female who was colorblind again. Can't happen unless the father is colorblind and the mother is either colorblind or a carrier of the flawed gene.

    So lets assume all men with the flawed X stop reproducing. Let's imagine a hypothetical where they are all aborted in utero.

    Thus, there would never be any chance of expressing the gene ever again.

    But the gene would still pass on.

    The mother would have a 50% chance of passing it on to her daughters.

    It would continue on in the females who will never, ever express the trait for eternity. This is how it passed on to me. My grandmother is th ecarrier, who passed it on to my mother who passed it on to me. She may have passed it to my sister, who in turn might have passed it to her own daughter.

    The fact that the gene is extant means it will always end up resurfacing.

  2. #472
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Evolution does not have a point. It is something that happens. Evolution does not set out to make more fit plants and animals, that is just the result.
    I agree. I had this same discussion about the random nature of evolution with OC. It only has a "point" in the abstract.

    Further, if I understand things correctly, selection happens on the individual level, not on a species. Dawkins talks about perpetuating genes, not species as an example.
    Changes on the individual level can aggregate over the species, but I'm splitting hairs and agree with your point.

  3. #473
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I'm sorry -- I asked the wrong question.

    If people with the blue-eye gene reporduced at the same rate as homosexuality, how long before the blue-eye gene died out, and why doesn't that extinction then apply to homosexuality?
    The gene wouldn't 'die out', so to speak, even if everyone with blue eyes on planet Earth were to stop reproducing. The first worldwide generation without blue eyes would have children with blue eyes in the second generation.

  4. #474
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Evolution does not have a point. It is something that happens. Evolution does not set out to make more fit plants and animals, that is just the result. Further, if I understand things correctly, selection happens on the individual level, not on a species. Dawkins talks about perpetuating genes, not species as an example.
    It's more about how traits that exist will make it more likly those same genes pass on, even if they don't come form the individual expressing the trait.


    For example, let's say homosexuality led there to be more males that can be trusted to be left with the females and not bang them when the other men go out hunting.

    Being men, they have more physical prowess in general than the average female, and they are not forced to worry about the kids, so they might be more useful in defending the tribe form lions and ****. Keeping the younger ones, probably related to the homosexuals in some way, alive.

    Let's say there are many siblings in this group. Their genes are more likely to pass on because of the homosexual's presence. Their genes are also likely to be similar to the genes of the homosexual individual.

    So although that man does not pass on his own genes, he ensures the survival of the genes that benefit the species by his very existence AND he helps select for his own genes survival via dormant passing on through hetero siblings.

  5. #475
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    The gene wouldn't 'die out', so to speak, even if everyone with blue eyes on planet Earth were to stop reproducing. The first worldwide generation without blue eyes would have children with blue eyes in the second generation.
    The blue-eye GENE, not blue eyes.
    I rephrased the question as I originally asked it improperly.

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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    It's more about how traits that exist will make it more likly those same genes pass on, even if they don't come form the individual expressing the trait.


    For example, let's say homosexuality led there to be more males that can be trusted to be left with the females and not bang them when the other men go out hunting.

    Being men, they have more physical prowess in general than the average female, and they are not forced to worry about the kids, so they might be more useful in defending the tribe form lions and ****. Keeping the younger ones, probably related to the homosexuals in some way, alive.

    Let's say there are many siblings in this group. Their genes are more likely to pass on because of the homosexual's presence. Their genes are also likely to be similar to the genes of the homosexual individual.

    So although that man does not pass on his own genes, he ensures the survival of the genes that benefit the species by his very existence AND he helps select for his own genes survival via dormant passing on through hetero siblings.
    But what would be the homosexuals motive for risking themselves to protect the tribe? Is it not, as I understand it, the same genes in those relatives in the tribe? Evolution is still, as I understand it, working on an individual level. I am not well read on evolution, but have read some Dawkins and Hrdy.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  7. #477
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The blue-eye GENE, not blue eyes.
    I rephrased the question as I originally asked it improperly.
    And I answered you. A gene coding for blue eyes would not disappear from the human species even if those with blue eyes stopped reproducing. The only way to eliminate it's expression is to eliminate human reproduction across the board.
    Last edited by Singularity; 12-02-09 at 05:27 PM.

  8. #478
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    But what would be the homosexuals motive for risking themselves to protect the tribe? Is it not, as I understand it, the same genes in those relatives in the tribe? Evolution is still, as I understand it, working on an individual level. I am not well read on evolution, but have read some Dawkins and Hrdy.
    Probably the same motivations for a guy who goes to war at 18 years old. Altruism. A sense of community.

    We know pack animals such as wolves will risk their lives in defense of the pack. This "altruism" trait has definitely been selected over the years for social animals. But it also means that the individuals who sacrifice themselves are not able to carry on their own genes directly.

    There is a ton of interesting research on the subject.

    It's all taking the idea that evolution is all about the individual and slamming it on it's ear. That's no longer the view held by most evolutionary scientists.

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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Probably the same motivations for a guy who goes to war at 18 years old. Altruism. A sense of community.

    We know pack animals such as wolves will risk their lives in defense of the pack. This "altruism" trait has definitely been selected over the years for social animals. But it also means that the individuals who sacrifice themselves are not able to carry on their own genes directly.

    There is a ton of interesting research on the subject.

    It's all taking the idea that evolution is all about the individual and slamming it on it's ear. That's no longer the view held by most evolutionary scientists.
    Going off to war is I doubt a genetic trait. The wolf example is genetic, and is explained by degrees of relation I think it is called. If my books where not all still packed up I would look it up for better info. My favorite explanation of it comes from: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Nature-Maternal-Instincts-Species/dp/0345408934/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259789124&sr=8-2]Amazon.com: Mother Nature: Maternal Instincts and How They Shape the Human Species (9780345408938): Sarah Hrdy: Books[/ame]
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  10. #480
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Going off to war is I doubt a genetic trait.
    Then why do Chimps do it?

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