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Thread: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

  1. #291
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeSaint View Post

    I am not defending the mother's motives, I am defending her right to act on whatever her motives may be, and that right does not change however ridiculously homophobic the mother is. As I said, she has the right to be stupid, as long as she is being stupid with her own body. The basis of her right to abort is the fact that the unborn child has no right to take over her body; the reasons why she refuses to sacrifice herself for the child are irrelevant.

    Surely if aborting your offspring on the grounds that your offspring may be gay is stupid than aborting for other equally stupid reasons is well stupid.

    Apparently you share my view that many abortions are due to "hysteria."

  2. #292
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeSaint View Post
    No, the question has nothing to do with what the unborn baby may become. The question is, does the presence of a gay gene merit abortion, and so what matters is the genetic information that is present before the baby is born, not the future behavior of that baby. She aborts it in the hypothetical because of the gene, not because of its adult behavior, real or imagined.
    Incorrect.
    The given:
    Assume for a moment that the parents do not want to take the chance that their child will be a homosexual
    This is a post-birth, future behavior issue.

    I am not defending the mother's motives, I am defending her right to act on whatever her motives may be, and that right does not change however ridiculously homophobic the mother is.
    Tsk tsk tsk. Assuming that those who do not approve of homosexuals are afraid of them...
    Want to go back to the Hoplophobia argument?

    I have to say, though, this topic has led to some useful pondering on my part, so for that, I thank you.
    I'm good like that.

    It isn't a person. It is human...
    A human life. Right. That was my point.
    "Personhood" is, as I mentioned, is a subjective and inconsisteint state of being contrived to allow for the idea that it is somehow OK to take an innocent human life because that human life isn't actually a 'person' and therefore doesnt matter.

    but "innocent" is a pointless descriptor unless one is religious
    Hardly. "Innocent" has many meanings, and not all of them have to do with religion.

    An unborn baby has done nothing wrong by ANY standard -- that is, he is innocent -- and because he has done nothing wrong, he, in no way shape of form, deserves to die. This seperates him him, say, murderers, rapists, etc, that -have- done something wrong and therefore -may- deserve to die.

    I am not a killer.
    You unashamedly and unequivocably support those that are and those that do, and you argue that they absolutely have a right to do so. You might not actually hold the vacuum wand, but you're just as much a killer as those that do.

    Actually, the personhood of the fetus is irrelevant...
    I think I said that

    ...because, as 1069 has pointed out many times, no person has the right to take over another person's body for his or her own benefit.
    Oh come now - the government allows people to do this all the time. No one has a right to fruits of my labor - a fruit produced by my body -- but I am forced to share that fruit so that others might benefit -- and I must share that fruit whether I like it of not.
    Same thing.

  3. #293
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Incorrect.
    The given:
    Assume for a moment that the parents do not want to take the chance that their child will be a homosexual
    This is a post-birth, future behavior issue.
    Then it becomes impossible to answer rationally. You are asking me to make a judgement in a situation in which I have no right to judge. My personal judgement would be that no, she does not have sufficient reason to abort her fetus, but again, my opinion makes absolutely no difference: she should still have the right to do it, whether I approve of it or not.

    Is that an acceptable answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Tsk tsk tsk. Assuming that those who do not approve of homosexuals are afraid of them...
    Want to go back to the Hoplophobia argument?
    Is there a different word you would prefer I use for disapproval of homosexuality? My understanding of the colloquial use of homophobia is that it includes irrational dislike of homosexuality, as well as fear; thus it seemed fitting. But I am certainly not concerned with the term itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    A human life. Right. That was my point.
    "Personhood" is, as I mentioned, is a subjective and inconsisteint state of being contrived to allow for the idea that it is somehow OK to take an innocent human life because that human life isn't actually a 'person' and therefore doesnt matter.
    And the mother is also a human life. And a person -- which is a legally applicable term in this issue, like it or not. But this is an argument that we are not going to resolve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Hardly. "Innocent" has many meanings, and not all of them have to do with religion.

    An unborn baby has done nothing wrong by ANY standard -- that is, he is innocent -- and because he has done nothing wrong, he, in no way shape of form, deserves to die. This seperates him him, say, murderers, rapists, etc, that -have- done something wrong and therefore -may- deserve to die.
    Yes, but since the mother is also innocent by ANY standard, the innocence of the child is not relevant; we are comparing the rights of these two innocent people, not the child and a murderer or rapist. As such, the term "innocent" is only an attempt to appeal to emotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You unashamedly and unequivocably support those that are and those that do, and you argue that they absolutely have a right to do so. You might not actually hold the vacuum wand, but you're just as much a killer as those that do.
    Does that mean you are responsible for every killing committed with a gun? And are a parent to every child that is not aborted?

    I am personally responsible for the decisions I make in my life. I am not responsible for those whose decisions I refuse to limit. I do not promote or encourage abortion, I simply state that women have the right to choose it if they wish; that is reality, as I see it. I make no moral judgements of those who avail themselves of abortion, nor of those who do not. It is not up to me, and thus it is not my responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I think I said that
    And you were right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Oh come now - the government allows people to do this all the time. No one has a right to fruits of my labor - a fruit produced by my body -- but I am forced to share that fruit so that others might benefit -- and I must share that fruit whether I like it of not.
    Same thing.
    Hardly the same thing. Money is not equivalent to your body. You can change jobs, but you cannot change bodies. You can stop working and thus stop paying taxes from the fruit of your labor, but if you cannot abort a fetus, you cannot get away from its infringement of your freedom.

  4. #294
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    [
    Surely if aborting your offspring on the grounds that your offspring may be gay is stupid than aborting for other equally stupid reasons is well stupid.

    Or convenience or worse as a means of birth control.........
    Last edited by Navy Pride; 12-27-06 at 04:57 PM.
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    I voted yes. Although, I think it's OK to abort a gay FETUS.



    /If parents are that bigoted that they would aborted their fetus simply because it's gay, it's a good thing that they're not reproducing.

  6. #296
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeSaint View Post
    Then it becomes impossible to answer rationally. You are asking me to make a judgement in a situation in which I have no right to judge.
    That's never stopped you before.

    My personal judgement would be that no, she does not have sufficient reason to abort her fetus
    Why?

    Is there a different word you would prefer I use for disapproval of homosexuality?
    How about "those that disapprove of homosexuals"?

    Yes, but since the mother is also innocent by ANY standard, the innocence of the child is not relevant

    So, in determining if its Ok to take a human life, in determning iof you have a RIGHT to take a human life, the innocence of that human life is irrelevant.


    Tell me you didnt just say that.

    we are comparing the rights of these two innocent people, not the child and a murderer or rapist
    We are also conparing death to, in some cases, simple inconvenience.
    You;re arguing that someone's right to avoid inconvenience trumps someone's right to avoid death.

    As such, the term "innocent" is only an attempt to appeal to emotion.
    As noted, it was to indicate that the unborn baby had done nothing wrong. You dont have t like it, but it is absolutely true.

    Does that mean you are responsible for every killing committed with a gun?
    ooh- nice try.
    But, see, I dont argue that criminals have a right to kill people, so you fall a little short.

    Hardly the same thing. Money is not equivalent to your body. You can change jobs, but you cannot change bodies. You can stop working and thus stop paying taxes from the fruit of your labor, but if you cannot abort a fetus, you cannot get away from its infringement of your freedom.
    Nice backpedal.
    Slavery ois slavery no matter how you want to term it -- a slave to the poor, a slave to the unborn. Your argument applies to them all.

  7. #297
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort View Post
    I voted yes. Although, I think it's OK to abort a gay FETUS.



    /If parents are that bigoted that they would aborted their fetus simply because it's gay, it's a good thing that they're not reproducing.
    Pro abortion people kill their babies for much weaker reasons then that......
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

  8. #298
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Pro abortion people kill their babies for much weaker reasons then that......
    .......and?

  9. #299
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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort View Post
    .......and?
    Convenience, birth control..........
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: Is it OK to abort a gay baby?

    As noted, it was to indicate that the unborn baby had done nothing wrong.
    It is extracting the bodily resources of another person, to the detriment of her health.
    It will continue to do so, with or without her consent, even if it causes her to die.
    If the person whose body the fetus is occupying does not want it to continue extracting her bodily resources, she has the right to disconnect it from her body and leave the vicinity.
    It's not about whether the fetus has done anything "wrong"; although it ought to be noted that it hasn't particularly done anything "right", either... certainly nothing that would convince me it deserves the right to occupy another person's body against their will.

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