For Conservatives: Religion and Valedictorian speechs [W:83]

While I don't think that a graduation ceremony is the proper place to do it, the individual has the right to free speech and is given a venue to perform that speech, therefore so long as that speech doesn't violate the law (giving away state secrets and the like), they can say anything they want to say. That doesn't mean there won't be consequences for the speaker, actions always come with potential consequences, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to say what they want and the podium to say it.

Dapper Andy said:

Says the guy with over two dozen complaints about people mentioning religion in his presence in this thread alone.

:roll:

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This is a debate forum...

davidtaylorjr said:

You ignored the definition.

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Do you reaaallllly want to get into ignorance? :shock:

Knowledge=power said:

Do you reaaallllly want to get into ignorance? :shock:

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Yours? Sure. :lol:

davidtaylorjr said:

Yours? Sure. :lol:

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Fascinating...

Knowledge=power said:

This is a debate forum...

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It sure is.

One where you've made dozens of complaints about people mentioning religion in his presence.

And a few where you became offended by others pointing out you can just as easily keep your complaints to yourself.

Knowledge=power said:

Fascinating...

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Apparently you don't get a joke.

Knowledge=power said:

I don't either, I agree completely with this post.

Edit: I disagree with the brief prayer part. Thanking God IMO is acceptable.

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So you're ok with us thanking God out loud, otherwise we shouldn't say anything about our religion to anyone ever. Generous.

I know I would be a unique participant, but here's my rationale. While many conservatives may look to religion and perhaps religious tradition, I would also posit that conservatism also inhabits a particular respect for authority and disdain for what are deemed unnecessary rebellious acts. I believe in the utility of religion in public life, but I also believe in a strict adherence to propriety and protocol unless absolutely necessary to do otherwise (and I am skeptical of most claims of "necessary").

Once the student broke protocol, then it is up to the event facilitators to determine if they need to take steps to end the changes, let them slide, or reprimand the student (though they should be lenient and not disproportionate to the offense).

Zyphlin said:

Referencing THIS story.

A question for Conservatives.

If a Valedictorian in a south carolina school decided to rip up their speech and instead read the islamic Call to Prayer, would you have an issue with that? If so, what would the reason for your taking issue with it?

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For the same reason this kid did? No problem at all.

I would have been particularly proud if this were an atheist who recited a pastapferian version of the prayer.

Its not about any particuler religion, it's about the 1st amendment.

Originally Posted by davidtaylorjr:

We are tired of our rights being squelched.

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To which I replied on post number #40 this morning:

What do you mean? Be specific and please give comparative examples regarding other religions. If you are tired of it, it must happen a lot. Other religions must be getting a great deal more favoritism by something or somebody and it must be happening quite a bit. Who and how and how often?

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Still no response from David Taylor. Crickets.

davidtaylorjr said:

We are tired of our rights being squelched.

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Risky Thicket said:

What do you mean? Be specific and please give comparative examples regarding other religions. If you are tired of it, it must happen a lot. Other religions must be getting a great deal more favoritism by something or somebody and it must be happening quite a bit. Who and how and how often?

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David, you must have missed my response ^^^ earlier today and a similar post to a similar statement you made regarding the same issue on another thread.

In the name of God, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
All praise and thanks is for to God, [The] Creator, Owner, Sustainer of the Worlds.
The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful.
Owner of the Day of Recompense.
You alone do we worship and You alone we seek for help.
Guide us to the Straight Path.
The path of those whom Your blessings are upon, not of those who You have cursed nor of those who have gone astray.

Free Speech

It's a helluva thing...

My bad. I answered the poll but I'm not a conservative... or a liberal, for that matter.

Since I did answer, though, I'll explain that my answer is the same as it was on the original thread. A ceremony held for a public educational institution should not be used as a religious pulpit at all, and most certainly not when the school itself has stated that religious commentary was not to be part of the graduation.

I'd object to anyone using such an occasion to proselytize their belief or their lack of belief to a captive audience that was there for a completely different purpose.

DiAnna said:

My bad. I answered the poll but I'm not a conservative... or a liberal, for that matter.

Since I did answer, though, I'll explain that my answer is the same as it was on the original thread. A ceremony held for a public educational institution should not be used as a religious pulpit at all, and most certainly not when the school itself has stated that religious commentary was not to be part of the graduation.

I'd object to anyone using such an occasion to proselytize their belief or their lack of belief to a captive audience that was there for a completely different purpose.

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Thanks for your post. Just to add a note to it: This is not a free speech issue due to the type of forum and the permissions granted to the speaker.

X Factor said:

So you're ok with us thanking God out loud, otherwise we shouldn't say anything about our religion to anyone ever. Generous.

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This is just an assumption, as I never said that.

It is only an issue to talk about your religion or lack thereof if it is a public event where the audience is of great variety concerning beliefs.

DiAnna said:

A ceremony held for a public educational institution should not be used as a religious pulpit at all, and most certainly not when the school itself has stated that religious commentary was not to be part of the graduation.

I'd object to anyone using such an occasion to proselytize their belief or their lack of belief to a captive audience that was there for a completely different purpose.

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I agree with you if we can agree that it is a matter of degree that makes it unacceptable.

Tearing up a pre-approved valedictory address, going off on a tangent about how one is glad he was introduced "to the Lord" at an early age, and reciting a religion-specific prayer in place of the original address is innapropriate and unacceptable.

The kid really went too far.

But in my opinion his decision to go too far was a reaction to the school administration's action of forbiding any mention of faith or religion, period.

If the kid had been alllowed to thank his God, and/or his faith community and family for their role in his success, or for their support, or for providing him with the natural gifts he has that allowed him to excel, then I expect he would have done just that and used the majority of his speech to discuss all the inane things that high school valadictorians generally address.

I think the school administration really precipitated this "event" by going too far in the oposite direction.

As I said earlier, I'm agnostic, so maybe that allows me to see things from both ends when it comes to this kind of thing.

I don't like the idea of the religious jamming their ridiculous religions down the throat of a captive audience, but neither do I like the idea of a very vocal minority of atheists waging a campaign to strip others of the right to freely practice their religion and to speak about the same openly just because they get all indgnant about being exposed to the idea of religion.

When it comes to religion, what I get out of the Bill of Rights is that "government" can't unduly favor one religion over any and all others, and that it can't impose belief on anyone.

That doesn't mean that religious people are forbidden to practice to talk about their faith when they're on government property or at government sanctioned events.

If atheists think that the Bill of Rights grants them a right to never have to be exposed to religion under any circumstances I think those atheists are idiots.

When you try to take something away from people that they consider to be essential then you're going to get a little blowback as a result.

That's what happened here.

The admin thought they were going to be clever by banning all religious speech in order to placate a bunch of cry babies and it kinda blew up in their faces.

The kid was wrong for doing what he did, according to the "letter of the law" (in this case, the dictates of the school's administration) but I can't say that I wouldn't have done the same thing if I were in his place.

DiAnna said:

A ceremony held for a public educational institution should not be used as a religious pulpit at all, and most certainly not when the school itself has stated that religious commentary was not to be part of the graduation.

I'd object to anyone using such an occasion to proselytize their belief or their lack of belief to a captive audience that was there for a completely different purpose.

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I agree with you, it shouldn't have happened, but there's a difference between something that shouldn't happen because it was in bad taste and violated the trust of the school and, as a lot of people seem to think, something that is patently illegal to have happened at all. What the kid did wasn't illegal. It was stupid but it was totally legal, he has the right to free speech, even if he's picked a very bad time to use it. That was really where I've been arguing, some people seem to think that because he steps foot on state ground, he loses his right to speak freely about religion. He does not. Neither does anyone else.

However, I don't see how the school could have stopped it. After all, they provided him with a podium and there are no penalties that he can really be accountable to if he chooses to do such a thing. They cannot legally withhold his diploma, he's earned that long before he stepped up on the stage. They cannot have him arrested, they cannot even apply pressure on him because he's no longer going to their school. This is an inherent problem with providing anyone a platform to speak where you cannot control what comes out of their mouth. The only way to keep it from happening again is to stop giving anyone over whom you have no influence or control a venue. Otherwise, you roll your dice and take your chances, come what may.

soot said:

Tearing up a pre-approved valedictory address, going off on a tangent about how one is glad he was introduced "to the Lord" at an early age, and reciting a religion-specific prayer in place of the original address is innapropriate and unacceptable.

The kid really went too far.

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Why was it inappropriate, unacceptable, or too far?

I understand you may not share his beliefs but his short introduction on his personal faith then recitation of a brief prayer seems far too inconsequential to be inappropriate, unacceptable, or too far. I could agree with you if he took the podium and delivered a fire and brimstone sermon antagonizing those who have different beliefs but he didn't.

What is so wrong with having to spend a few very brief minutes listening to someone who has a difference of opinion?

Dapper Andy said:

Why was it inappropriate, unacceptable, or too far?

I understand you may not share his beliefs but his short introduction on his personal faith then recitation of a brief prayer seems far too inconsequential to be inappropriate, unacceptable, or too far. I could agree with you if he took the podium and delivered a fire and brimstone sermon antagonizing those who have different beliefs but he didn't.

What is so wrong with having to spend a few very brief minutes listening to someone who has a difference of opinion?

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Because he was told beforehand that discussing things of a religious nature was prohibited.

He was required to submit his address to the school's administration for their review/appproval, which he did.

He school approved his address, and his being the valedictory speaker, based on the speech he submitted, which abided by the rules laid down by the administration.

When he got up to the podium to give the address which had been reviewed and approved he proceded to tear it up, make a few brief comments about how important his faith was to him, then recited the Lord's Prayer, and that was it.

The way he handled the matter was underhanded.

If he disagreed with the "no religion" policy he could have opted out of giving the valedictory address at any time.

He could have just chosen not to be involved.

He could have submitted, in protest, an address that included religious material and then either removed it or accepted the fact that he would not be permitted to give an address.

He could even have offered a few comments or a prayer and then given the appproved address.

Essentially what he did was choose the least appropriate and noble path possible.

As I've made clear previously in this thread, it wouldn't matter to me if he mentioned religion or said a prayer. I have no problem at all sitting through either. It wouldn't even have mattered to me if his entire speech was about God, and how great God is, and how great his religion is, and how God is good, and how God is great, and all that.

I think all of that is nonsense, but I've sat through plenty of speeches and presentations and whatnot that were equally, if not more inane.

Like I also said earlier, there is nothing good about a commencement ceremony. They all suck, and dragging God into one isn't going to make it any worse (or any better for that matter).

But I'm also of the belief that if you accept a responsibility, and if you give your word, you keep your word and you take your responsibility seriously.

This kid gave his word not to turn the commencement into a religious event and he accepted the rresponsibility to give the address which had been approved.

I think that shirking his word and his responsibility is the act of a real piece of trash human being.

Granted, this kid was a piece of trash in God's name (Amen), but nevertheless...

soot said:

Because he was told beforehand that discussing things of a religious nature was prohibited.

He was required to submit his address to the school's administration for their review/appproval, which he did.

He school approved his address, and his being the valedictory speaker, based on the speech he submitted, which abided by the rules laid down by the administration.

When he got up to the podium to give the address which had been reviewed and approved he proceded to tear it up, make a few brief comments about how important his faith was to him, then recited the Lord's Prayer, and that was it.

The way he handled the matter was underhanded.

If he disagreed with the "no religion" policy he could have opted out of giving the valedictory address at any time.

He could have just chosen not to be involved.

He could have submitted, in protest, an address that included religious material and then either removed it or accepted the fact that he would not be permitted to give an address.

He could even have offered a few comments or a prayer and then given the appproved address.

Essentially what he did was choose the least appropriate and noble path possible.

As I've made clear previously in this thread, it wouldn't matter to me if he mentioned religion or said a prayer. I have no problem at all sitting through either. It wouldn't even have mattered to me if his entire speech was about God, and how great God is, and how great his religion is, and how God is good, and how God is great, and all that.

I think all of that is nonsense, but I've sat through plenty of speeches and presentations and whatnot that were equally, if not more inane.

Like I also said earlier, there is nothing good about a commencement ceremony. They all suck, and dragging God into one isn't going to make it any worse (or any better for that matter).

But I'm also of the belief that if you accept a responsibility, and if you give your word, you keep your word and you take your responsibility seriously.

This kid gave his word not to turn the commencement into a religious event and he accepted the rresponsibility to give the address which had been approved.

I think that shirking his word and his responsibility is the act of a real piece of trash human being.

Granted, this kid was a piece of trash in God's name (Amen), but nevertheless...

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You just seem to be doing an awful lot of crying over something so inconsequential.

Calling a kid trash over this?

Dapper Andy said:

You just seem to be doing an awful lot of crying over something so inconsequential.

Calling a kid trash over this?

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I believe that we're not only what we say we are, but also what we do and what we allow to be done in our presence.

Doesn't matter to me whether we're talking about a valedictorian or a teenage baby's daddy, doesn't matter whether we're talking about giving a speech in Jesus' name or fraudulently collecting an entitlement check.

We're only as good as our word, and if our word is no good then we're no good. We can only be counted on until we start reneging on the responsibilities we accept, and once we start reneging we're no good any more.

You can disagree with that if you want.

It really makes no difference to me.

I hold myself to a much, much higher standard than most of you do, even most of you who have religion.

Funny that few or none are addressing the question put forth by the OP. Maybe it was the poll itself that confused participants.

spanky said:

Funny that few or none are addressing the question put forth by the OP. Maybe it was the poll itself that confused participants.

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Because it's been answered already, there's nothing more to say on the subject. I don't think the valedictorian should have done what he did, but it wasn't the type of prayer that he offered, it was the fact that he offered one at all that was the issue.