View Poll Results: Should the school have banned the reading of the prayer by the student?

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Thread: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

  1. #701
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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    for some reason, and iam not going to include you, people think they have rights on other peoples property, business, or public property, to execise any rights they chose, and this simply is not true.

    Public property, certainly they do. private property, they do too, but the owners also have the right to ask them to leave.

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    I'm wrong? Why? Cuz you said so? You can all you want as well, like that means something? Heh, but there now two of us has handed out permission slips today...

    If what a kid says is hate filled, if it incites violence, if it promotes illegal behavior than a school has every right to stifle him. Saying a prayer doesn't meet those qualifications. Schools who DO stifle their pupils, are abusing if not completely usurping authority not granted to them.

    Now, anything short of you trying to convince people that by this young man saying the Lord's Prayer -- it was really a rallying cry for the 10th Crusade, the young man hiding his sword and dirk under the podium waiting for some infidel to meet his gaze, than all you're doing is trying to justify the egregious act of stripping people of there natural right because you don't like what they have to say.
    Yes, sorry but you are wrong according to case law and the courts. Again, I will refer you to post #691.

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    I'm wrong? Why? Cuz you said so? You can all you want as well, like that means something? Heh, but there now two of us has handed out permission slips today...

    If what a kid says is hate filled, if it incites violence, if it promotes illegal behavior than a school has every right to stifle him. Saying a prayer doesn't meet those qualifications. Schools who DO stifle their pupils, are abusing if not completely usurping authority not granted to them.

    Now, anything short of you trying to convince people that by this young man saying the Lord's Prayer -- it was really a rallying cry for the 10th Crusade, the young man hiding his sword and dirk under the podium waiting for some infidel to meet his gaze, than all you're doing is trying to justify the egregious act of stripping people of there natural right because you don't like what they have to say.
    Did you not see that post? It's on the previous page. Maybe you're just choosing to ignore it because it proves you wrong.

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    I'm wrong? Why? Cuz you said so? You can all you want as well, like that means something? Heh, but there now two of us has handed out permission slips today...

    If what a kid says is hate filled, if it incites violence, if it promotes illegal behavior than a school has every right to stifle him. Saying a prayer doesn't meet those qualifications. Schools who DO stifle their pupils, are abusing if not completely usurping authority not granted to them.

    Now, anything short of you trying to convince people that by this young man saying the Lord's Prayer -- it was really a rallying cry for the 10th Crusade, the young man hiding his sword and dirk under the podium waiting for some infidel to meet his gaze, than all you're doing is trying to justify the egregious act of stripping people of there natural right because you don't like what they have to say.
    Here here!
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.

    Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Here's some more from my link, since it STILL does not seem to be sinking in with SOME people. Now pay attention and read carefully.

    (
    b) State officials here direct the performance of a formal religious exercise at secondary schools' promotional and graduation ceremonies. Lee's decision that prayers should be given and his selection of the religious participant are choices attributable to the State. Moreover, through the pamphlet and his advice that the prayers be nonsectarian, he directed and controlled the prayers' content. That the directions may have been given in a good-faith attempt to make the prayers acceptable to most persons does not resolve the dilemma caused by the school's involvement, since the government may not establish an official or civic religion as a means of avoiding the establishment of a religion with more specific creeds. Pp. 587-590.

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    More about the case. All of this is from the link in post #691 BTW.

    The case was submitted on stipulated facts. The District Court held that petitioners' practice of including invocations and benedictions in public school graduations violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, and it enjoined petitioners from continuing the practice. 728 F.Supp. 68 (RI 1990). The court applied the three-part Establishment Clause test set forth in Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971). Under that test as described in our past cases, to satisfy the Establishment Clause, a governmental [505 U.S. 577, 585] practice must (1) reflect a clearly secular purpose; (2) have a primary effect that neither advances nor inhibits religion; and (3) avoid excessive government entanglement with religion. Committee for Public Ed. & Religious Liberty v. Nyquist, 413 U.S. 756, 773 (1973). The District Court held that petitioners' actions violated the second part of the test, and so did not address either the first or the third. The court decided, based on its reading of our precedents, that the effects test of Lemon is violated whenever government action "creates an identification of the state with a religion, or with religion in general," 728 F.Supp., at 71, or when "the effect of the governmental action is to endorse one religion over another, or to endorse religion in general." Id., at 72. The court determined that the practice of including invocations and benedictions, even so-called nonsectarian ones, in public school graduations creates an identification of governmental power with religious practice, endorses religion, and violates the Establishment Clause. In so holding, the court expressed the determination not to follow Stein v. Plainwell Community Schools, 822 F.2d 1406 (1987), in which the Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit, relying on our decision in Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783 (1983), held that benedictions and invocations at public school graduations are not always unconstitutional. In Marsh, we upheld the constitutionality of the Nebraska State Legislature's practice of opening each of its sessions with a prayer offered by a chaplain paid out of public funds. The District Court in this case disagreed with the Sixth Circuit's reasoning because it believed that Marsh was a narrow decision, "limited to the unique situation of legislative prayer," and did not have any relevance to school prayer cases. 728 F.Supp., at 74.

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Yes, sorry but you are wrong according to case law and the courts. Again, I will refer you to post #691.
    This Court need not revisit the questions of the definition and scope of the principles governing the extent of permitted accommodation by the State for its citizens' religious beliefs and practices, for the controlling precedents as they relate to prayer and religious exercise in primary and secondary public schools compel the holding here. Thus, the Court will not reconsider its decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 . The principle that government may accommodate the free exercise of religion does not supersede the fundamental limitations imposed by the Establishment Clause, which guarantees, at a minimum, that a government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise, or otherwise act in a way which "establishes a [505 U.S. 577, 578] [state] religion or religious faith, or tends to do so." Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668, 678 . Pp. 586-5

    this is where the issue at hand would be held in contention and nothing done infringed on that in any way.

    No government entity had anything to do with it. They were expressly left out, therefore, what the kid did was kosher.

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Wrong. Post #691. Case law specifically addresses school-sponsored ceremonies.
    What's further
    delivered the opinion of the Court.
    Opinion. these change like my wife changes handbags.

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    More about the case. All of this is from the link in post #691 BTW.
    What's even further still

    The question before us is whether including clerical members who offer prayers as part of the official school graduation ceremony is consistent with the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment, provisions the Fourteenth Amendment makes applicable with full force to the States and their school districts

    The case you provide has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

    Who wrong? YOU wrong.

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    This Court need not revisit the questions of the definition and scope of the principles governing the extent of permitted accommodation by the State for its citizens' religious beliefs and practices, for the controlling precedents as they relate to prayer and religious exercise in primary and secondary public schools compel the holding here. Thus, the Court will not reconsider its decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 . The principle that government may accommodate the free exercise of religion does not supersede the fundamental limitations imposed by the Establishment Clause, which guarantees, at a minimum, that a government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise, or otherwise act in a way which "establishes a [505 U.S. 577, 578] [state] religion or religious faith, or tends to do so." Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668, 678 . Pp. 586-5

    this is where the issue at hand would be held in contention and nothing done infringed on that in any way.

    No government entity had anything to do with it. They were expressly left out, therefore, what the kid did was kosher.
    Hello?? Schools are run by local governmental bodies. You are just wrong. Admit it. The school has every "right" to monitor and disallow certain content if it feels that it even MIGHT be offensive, that includes any kind of school-sponsored events, ESPECIALLY when it comes to religious content.

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