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Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

Should the school have banned the reading of the prayer by the student?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 27.3%
  • No

    Votes: 60 68.2%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 4 4.5%

  • Total voters
    88
ernst, we're not discussing inflammatory speech. The discussion concerns a student's belief that his right to free expression of religion trumps the political correctness of some thinking that it equates to a governmental "establishment" of religion. You're usually more of a defender of the country's founding, but if we all thought we should blindly acquiesce to governmental control, we would be little more than a country of robots...


So, you see his actions as revolutionary ? That's rich.....................
 
ernst, we're not discussing inflammatory speech. The discussion concerns a student's belief that his right to free expression of religion trumps the political correctness of some thinking that it equates to a governmental "establishment" of religion. You're usually more of a defender of the country's founding, but if we all thought we should blindly acquiesce to governmental control, we would be little more than a country of robots...

SPEECH YOU DISAGREE WITH IS.............. FREE SPEECH......

i am for rights of property in the strongest degree, however when your on public property speech is not so free, when others and you have to convene in certain places to do things........speech can be limited, as to protect everyone.
 
SPEECH YOU DISAGREE WITH IS.............. FREE SPEECH......

i am for rights of property in the strongest degree, however when your on public property speech is not so free, when others and you have to convene in certain places to do things........speech can be limited, as to protect everyone.

You're trying to make a distinction that does not exist under our Constitution. Read the first once more and show me where it is restricted to private property...
 
If I were standing in line for a driver's license, there is nothing stopping me from reciting the Lord's Prayer or stating I hate religion. Free speech is not restricted to one's property...

thats true.......but can you start to pray loudly in line, and ask others to pray with you aloud, can you repeatedly make nasty remarks to me, demean me, and make racial remarks.....no you will get throw out.

when your not on your property, ...your not in charge to do anything as you will.
 
You're trying to make a distinction that does not exist under our Constitution. Read the first once more and show me where it is restricted to private property...

i have stated before, when your off your property, you cant do just anything you want to even though it public, there are limits, and they are there for the protection of the people.

you know when people come together the problem of fights can arise, and limits on own speech, and doing certain things helps, to prevent problems that would arise if those limits did not exist.
 
As far as I'm concerned, yes, and if you don't like what is being spoken, feel free to exit...

All the chest thumping aside, Paul, if I am there as a parent with my family and friends to see my child graduate I don't want to be forced to make that kind of decision. I would respect your family and your children and I wouldn't support anyone forcing that kind of situation on you or your family either.
 
thats true.......but can you start to pray loudly in line, and ask others to pray with you aloud, can you repeatedly make nasty remarks to me, demean me, and make racial remarks.....no you will get throw out.

when your not on your property, ...your not in charge to do anything as you will.

Yes, I could pray in line, and asking others to do so as well is not out of bounds unless some threat is implied should they choose not to agree. Making "nasty remarks to me, demean me, and make racial remarks" would be considered intimidation. What this student did does not equate to any of these...
 
All the chest thumping aside, Paul, if I am there as a parent with my family and friends to see my child graduate I don't want to be forced to make that kind of decision. I would respect your family and your children and I wouldn't support anyone forcing that kind of situation on you or your family either.

I appreciate your reasoned response, but the country was founded on some of these basic principles, and it seems that over the last 40-50 years we are trying to do everything to respect the rights of those that might be offended at the expense of why the country was founded...
 
Yes, I could pray in line, and asking others to do so as well is not out of bounds unless some threat is implied should they choose not to agree. Making "nasty remarks to me, demean me, and make racial remarks" would be considered intimidation. What this student did does not equate to any of these...

can you pray in line ...yes ....if you dont bother other people, when you do, by getting loud, make remarks which are unkind to other people.......your going to get throw out, and your going to find, you dont have any rights to do as you will.

exercisable rights are not an absolute ..........everywhere..........not on property you dont own.
 
can you pray in line ...yes ....if you dont bother other people, when you do, by getting loud, make remarks which are unkind to other people.......your going to get throw out, and your going to find, you dont have any rights to do as you will.

exercisable rights are not an absolute ..........everywhere..........not on property you dont own.

I believe you just agreed. I'm attempting to remain on the topic of the thread and what the student actually did, which was not inflammatory in any manner...
 
I appreciate your reasoned response, but the country was founded on some of these basic principles, and it seems that over the last 40-50 years we are trying to do everything to respect the rights of those that might be offended at the expense of why the country was founded...

When I was in the 8th grade at Druid Hills High School in Atlanta I had home room in the biology lab. We all sat around big lab tables. There was a girl, Rena Levin, the most beautiful creature I had ever seen, I was captivated. I didn't know squat from religion, wasn't raised to see a difference. Every morning during the announcements over the intercom they would finish with a prayer, a Christian prayer. With most everyone closing their eyes I always tried to steal long looks at Rena on the other side of the table. Me thinking her eyes would be closed. They never were. F-i-n-a-l-l-y it dawned on me one day - I'm not that bright - that my Jewish and Arab friends weren't closing their eyes during the prayer. That is the first time in my life that I realized that the indiscriminate use of religion could ostracize people, and me being a Roman Catholic! It bothered me. It was wrong.
 
I believe you just agreed. I'm attempting to remain on the topic of the thread and what the student actually did, which was not inflammatory in any manner...

i agree, however when i go to places of activity, that the community must share, i dont get to exercise my rights to the fullest extend i wish.

do i think anyone was hurt.......no. ..however again, i would have been offended if the student, was a wiggen, and brought that up.

one of the problems i have spoken about many times on this forum is people think they have rights all the time, and that they can even exercise them on someone else property.....which i always fight against that kind of thinking.
 
i agree, however when i go to places of activity, that the community must share, i dont get to exercise my rights to the fullest extend i wish.

do i think anyone was hurt.......no. ..however again, i would have been offended if the student, was a wiggen, and brought that up.

one of the problems i have spoken about many times on this forum is people think they have rights all the time, and that they can even exercise them on someone else property.....which i always fight against that kind of thinking.

Have you ever been to NYC? If so, you would know that many things are said on the sidewalks that you wouldn't agree with, but those expressing their thoughts have the right to do so. In the city where I live there are daily protests outside of the abortion clinics. Does it offend some, you bet, but they have the right to do so. We would still be subjects to British or Spanish rule if some had not found the courage to speak out in public...
 
Are you going to continue on with this intellectual dishonesty that is on full display here, or are you going to concede that schools do have a right to monitor and limit what is said in student speeches at school sponsored events where the school is liable for statements made?

I'll just rely on your link and conclude that it depends on the jurisdiction. Beyond that, I think that "dishonesty" is a disproportionate word for discussion of an 18 year old's recitation of the Lord's Prayer.:peace
 
I'll just rely on your link and conclude that it depends on the jurisdiction. Beyond that, I think that "dishonesty" is a disproportionate word for discussion of an 18 year old's recitation of the Lord's Prayer.:peace

All this "liability" bs given as an excuse to restrict speech is just that, bs. Good evening 2m...
 
I appreciate your reasoned response, but the country was founded on some of these basic principles, and it seems that over the last 40-50 years we are trying to do everything to respect the rights of those that might be offended at the expense of why the country was founded...

Again, we're talking about students on school property. There are a LOT of things that even I, as an adult, cannot do on school property. These same principles carry over to any kind of school sponsored public event.

The thing of it is, is that the school has to worry about frivolous lawsuits. Most schools don't have the money to fight lawsuits so they take certain precautions to make sure that it doesn't happen, and the Supreme Court tends to think that it is okay. If the students are allowed to hold private prayer group during school hours on school grounds, then the school IS trying to honor their right to practice their religions, and it is not unreasonable for the school to expect their students to follow the rules and submit speeches and things to them in the appropriate way.

Another point you made earlier about children having equal rights as adults is just not true. For instance, if my mother held me in her home against my will, that would be considered kidnapping because I am an adult. However, if I was 12 or even 17 years old, my mother most certainly COULD hold me in her home against my will. I would not have the same rights that I possess now as an adult. I know that's not relevant, but I was just using it as an example of how rights of kids and adults can differ greatly.
 
All this "liability" bs given as an excuse to restrict speech is just that, bs. Good evening 2m...

Oh okay. Frivolous lawsuits against schools NEVER happen.
 
I'm sure the King wasn't pleased with our founders either, but they found the gonads to speak...

What?! You aren't comparing this to the Revolutionary war are you? :lamo Good Grief! Let's try to keep things in perspective here!
 
Have you ever been to NYC? If so, you would know that many things are said on the sidewalks that you wouldn't agree with, but those expressing their thoughts have the right to do so. In the city where I live there are daily protests outside of the abortion clinics. Does it offend some, you bet, but they have the right to do so. We would still be subjects to British or Spanish rule if some had not found the courage to speak out in public...

Paul your right , on what you state, becuase no one is made to stand there is listen to them, people are free to keep moving on go on with there business.

but in public buildings, all people have to use them for services.... and becuase people have to convene in certain places to transact business, you dont have a right, to use that situation as a public form for your speech.

because in a sense you have them held captive ,becuase they have to get whatever business they have done.

as the example before, do you think if i am standing in line in the DMV, i want to preaching to me and telling me i am going to hell...or i am a sinner....no i dont have to listen you bow beat me, while i wait for service from the state.
 
Again, we're talking about students on school property. There are a LOT of things that even I, as an adult, cannot do on school property. These same principles carry over to any kind of school sponsored public event.

The thing of it is, is that the school has to worry about frivolous lawsuits. Most schools don't have the money to fight lawsuits so they take certain precautions to make sure that it doesn't happen, and the Supreme Court tends to think that it is okay. If the students are allowed to hold private prayer group during school hours on school grounds, then the school IS trying to honor their right to practice their religions, and it is not unreasonable for the school to expect their students to follow the rules and submit speeches and things to them in the appropriate way.

Another point you made earlier about children having equal rights as adults is just not true. For instance, if my mother held me in her home against my will, that would be considered kidnapping because I am an adult. However, if I was 12 or even 17 years old, my mother most certainly COULD hold me in her home against my will. I would not have the same rights that I possess now as an adult. I know that's not relevant, but I was just using it as an example of how rights of kids and adults can differ greatly.

So, because schools do not have the funds to defend against frivolous lawsuits is a sufficient reason to alter what is allowed at school functions? I would think that society would take action against those bringing such suits rather than trying to placate those responsible. If one out of a hundred were offended by what might be said at an event, I would suggest they leave should that occur.

Seventeen year olds that are graduating HS are no longer "children". They are the young adults in which you strove to instill personal responsibility and sound decision making capabilities. I could not and would not be upset if one of mine stood up for what he/she believed to be right...
 
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