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Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

Should the school have banned the reading of the prayer by the student?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 27.3%

  • No

    Votes: 60 68.2%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 4 4.5%
  • Total voters
    88
ChrisL said:
You are wrong. The valedictorian clearly represents the school, especially when the graduation itself is a school sponsored event. It's really not that complicated an issue to understand. The problem with THIS specific case is that the boy submitted a speech for pre-approval which it was, then changed his speech and did not get approval for those changes.

The school was NOT given an opportunity to provide a disclaimer in this situation.
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Once again, legally speaking, the valedictorian's speech does NOT represent the school's speech. The school had ample opportunity to provide a disclaimer after the speech was done. It is NOT the valedictorian's responsibility to provide such an opportunity in the first place.

I've shown you the decision and legal analysis, it disagrees with your position.
 
ChrisL said:
Obviously you haven't been reading the links, or even your OWN link for that matter. The conclusion clearly states that schools CAN limit a student's speech if they feel such speech would be offensive. The audience being voluntary is besides the point. Also, it WOULD be a captive audience simply for the fact that parents are there to see their children graduate, just as people standing in line at a grocery store would be considered a captive audience.
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Offensive speech is defined and religious speech does not fall under that court definition.
 
clownboy said:
Once again, legally speaking, the valedictorian's speech does NOT represent the school's speech. The school had ample opportunity to provide a disclaimer after the speech was done. It is NOT the valedictorian's responsibility to provide such an opportunity in the first place.
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Here it is again. I think this must be like the 10th time I've posted this. This is from YOUR link.

The Supreme Court’s decisions have left open several issues regarding religious expression at graduation events that lower courts have addressed in a variety of ways. Principals and school boards will look to lower court opinions in their jurisdictions (if any) that deal with these issues for guidance. Thus, specific restrictions on free speech may vary between jurisdictions. At the most basic level, however, schools may not restrict students’ speech based on the students’ religious viewpoint. Under current law in some jurisdictions, schools may prohibit a valedictorian from using sectarian or proselytizing language during a graduation speech.
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Reciting prayers at a graduation ceremony could easily be construed as proselytizing to a captive audience.
 
Just an FYI. As you can see sectarian speech can cover a LOT of ground.

sectarian  [sek-tair-ee-uhn] Show IPA
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: narrow-minded, exclusive
Synonyms: bigoted, clannish, cliquish, dissident, doctrinaire, dogmatic, factional, fanatic, fanatical, hidebound, insular, limited, local, nonconforming, nonconformist, parochial, partisan, provincial, rigid, schismatic, skeptical, small-town, splinter
Notes: sectarian means of or relating to or characteristic of a sect or sects, while secular means not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body or not religious or spiritual in nature
Antonyms: broad, broad-minded, liberal, nonsectarian
 
Oh and just to set the record straight, I do believe in God too. I just don't believe that religion and school should be intermingled, or at least not in public school. There are already schools that do that. If that's what you want, then send your child to one of those schools.
 
ChrisL said:
Here it is again. I think this must be like the 10th time I've posted this. This is from YOUR link.



Reciting prayers at a graduation ceremony could easily be construed as proselytizing to a captive audience.
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And for the final time - this is not a captive audience, it doesn't meet the court's definition. This is an entirely VOLUNTARY event. It is not a classroom where students must be (THAT is a captive audience in this context).

The key question regarding speeches provided by valedictorians and salutatorians at graduations is whether such expression would be viewed as bearing the approval of the school and, if so, whether regulations of such expression are required to be viewpoint neutral.1 In the absence of a controlling opinion on these issues in a particular jurisdiction, graduation speeches by valedictorians and salutatorians should be reasonably understood as the student’s own expression rather than speech controlled or sponsored by the school. A reasonable person in attendance at a graduation ceremony understands that valedictorians and salutatorians are selected due to academic criteria and their remarks typically reflect their own views. Valedictorians and salutatorians should be able to share how their faith has impacted their lives without fear of censorship by school officials.
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Btw, a "controlling opinion" would be the local district court.
 
clownboy said:
And for the final time - this is not a captive audience, it doesn't meet the court's definition. This is an entirely VOLUNTARY event. It is not a classroom where students must be (THAT is a captive audience in this context).
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Sharing how faith has impacted your life and reciting prayers specific to a specific religion are two COMPLETELY different things. Don't you see that?
 
ChrisL said:
Oh and just to set the record straight, I do believe in God too. I just don't believe that religion and school should be intermingled, or at least not in public school. There are already schools that do that. If that's what you want, then send your child to one of those schools.
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That's wonderful, but not the issue here at all. Even in public schools students have a right to speak their religion. The school cannot, school officials cannot and the school and officials may not endorse any student's expression of religious speech.
 
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ChrisL said:
Sharing how faith has impacted your life and reciting prayers specific to a specific religion are two COMPLETELY different things. Don't you see that?
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Doesn't matter, not a captive audience, it's the student's own view, not endorsed by the school == student's right to free speech.

The only legal recourse the school has is to:
1) cut the mic
2) remind the audience this is not the school's position but the student's
3) stop being dicks about it

Anything else opens them up to a legitimate law suit.
 
clownboy said:
That wonderful, but not the issue here at all. Even in public schools students have a right to speak their religion. The school cannot, school officials cannot and the school and officials may not endorse any student's expression of religious speech.
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Sorry you're wrong. There are most certainly limitations in school on how student's can express themselves, be it religiously or otherwise. They are allowed to express themselves with restrictions. Also, children do NOT have the same level of rights that adults do. That's something important for you to remember.

Personally, the prayer wouldn't have offended me in the least bit. However, it DOES offend some people, and lawsuits DO arise because of these kinds of matters.
 
clownboy said:
Doesn't matter, not a captive audience, it's the student's own view, not endorsed by the school == student's right to free speech.
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Nope, the school is allowed to review, restrict and/or approve the speech. If the speech contains prayers or profanity, the school can have the student omit those portions.
 
Really, why not just put your fingers in your ears and scream CHILDREN CAN DO AND SAY WHATEVER THEY WANT WHENEVER THEY WANT TO! LOL. Ridiculous.
 
ChrisL said:
Nope, the school is allowed to review, restrict and/or approve the speech. If the speech contains prayers or profanity, the school can have the student omit those portions.
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I read in one report that he had the speech vetted, then tore it up when he reached the podium. That speaks to deceit n his part. Lying for the Lord.
 
Manc Skipper said:
I read in one report that he had the speech vetted, then tore it up when he reached the podium. That speaks to deceit n his part. Lying for the Lord.
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That's my understanding of how it happened as well. He never submitted his speech which included the prayer for approval. He just decided on his own that he was going to do this. Personally, I think it's more of an attention-getting ploy than anything else. Just because he was the valedictorian doesn't mean he was an angel. :mrgreen:
 
ChrisL said:
Again, I have to say LOL. You have no idea what his intentions were.
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Why would you say "lol"? Lol is an action, not a word, you don't say it, you do it. But hay knock yourself out, just know you look like an idiot.
 
Jerry said:
Why would you say "lol"? Lol is an action, not a word, you don't say it, you do it.
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No, when I read some of your posts, I actually do say LOL to myself.
 
ChezC3 said:
Public property, certainly they do. private property, they do too, but the owners also have the right to ask them to leave.
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even on public property you dont have rights to do as your please.

can you bare a firearm in a public building?, can people just run off at the mouth in a public building? can you and many others assemble an hold a worship serve in a public building, without getting permission.

you cannot just becuase something is public..... exercise any right you have.

on the public streets, it has become an accepted practice, but not usually in public buildings.

becuase different from the streets, people of many aspects of life have to convene in public buildings for some type of business, and they should not have to be subject to you exercising any right you wish to.
 
ChrisL said:
Are you kidding? You MUST be kidding. :shock: This case law SPECIFICALLY deals with prayer during a graduation ceremony. ANY prayer by ANY guest, student or school employee.
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Is your English no good? What did the opinion state?

The question before us is whether including clerical members who offer prayers as part of the official school graduation ceremony is

It is limited in its review. You cannot, honestly, with a shred of intellectual honesty expand what was written explicitly into the broad interpretation you're trying to pass off.
 
ChrisL said:
Hello?? Schools are run by local governmental bodies. You are just wrong. Admit it. :lamo The school has every "right" to monitor and disallow certain content if it feels that it even MIGHT be offensive, that includes any kind of school-sponsored events, ESPECIALLY when it comes to religious content.
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:2wave:

No kidding. No I am not. I won't, can't make me. I already stated what the school has a right to not allow. Prayer doesn't fall under this catagory.
 
Geoist said:
Essentially the prayer has nothing to do with the real issue: and that is do school administrator's have the authority to review and even censor parts of a speech? I say they do in this case because the child was in a position of privilege. If he was in a classroom or in the hallways then that is another matter. Even then, students and faculty don't have complete freedom of speech as they can be disciplined for cursing and other forms of offensive language.
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What you are equating is prayer to cursing, which actually is something that can be found to be offensive.

I never said they don't. So long as its review falls under the before mentioned criteria.
 
Jerry said:
Why would you say "lol"? Lol is an action, not a word, you don't say it, you do it. But hay knock yourself out, just know you look like an idiot.
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Lol Jerry! "Hay?" :rofl You can't spell a 3-letter word? Oh okay Jerry, I'm the one who looks like an idiot.
 
ChezC3 said:
:2wave:

No kidding. No I am not. I won't, can't make me. I already stated what the school has a right to not allow. Prayer doesn't fall under this catagory.
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Oh but it does.
 
ChezC3 said:
What you are equating is prayer to cursing, which actually is something that can be found to be offensive.

I never said they don't. So long as its review falls under the before mentioned criteria.
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To some people, the Lord's prayer might be offensive. Perhaps I'm a satanist?
 
This is from CB's link.

Moreover, in Lassonde v. Pleasanton Unified Sch. Dist., 320 F.3d 979 (9th Cir. 2003), the Ninth Circuit applied Cole and held that a public school could not allow a co-salutatorian to include sectarian or proselytizing remarks in his speech even if a disclaimer was included. The student drafted a speech that “quoted extensively from the Bible” and was intended to encourage other students to accept Christ. Id. at 981. The school “advised [the student] that references to God as they related to [his] own beliefs were permissible, but that proselytizing comments were not.” Id. (emphasis added). The school allowed the student to retain “several personal references to his religion” in his speech. Id. The Ninth Circuit held that the school’s actions were required by the Establishment Clause due to the control that the school exercised over the graduation ceremony. Id. at 984.
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ernst barkmann said:
even on public property you dont have rights to do as your please.

can you bare a firearm in a public building?, can people just run off at the mouth in a public building? can you and many others assemble an hold a worship serve in a public building, without getting permission.

you cannot just becuase something is public..... exercise any right you have.

on the public streets, it has become an accepted practice, but not usually in public buildings.

becuase different from the streets, people of many aspects of life have to convene in public buildings for some type of business, and they should not have to be subject to you exercising any right you wish to.
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I find this viewpoint a bit disconcerting coming from someone purporting to be a libertarian.

Depending on your location and to varying degrees you can carry weapons in public places.

Personally it is an affront on our rights that this isn't a universal allowance.

Hold on now. Do you hear what you're saying?

and they should not have to be subject to you exercising any right you wish to.
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Your preference trumps my RIGHTS? Au contraire mon frere. Rights aren't limited to the anyone's individual tastes, and especially not limited by prejudice.
 
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