View Poll Results: Should the school have banned the reading of the prayer by the student?

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Thread: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

  1. #1131
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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) well i never said he was a "criminal" i said he broke the rules
    2.) again i havent presented this argument as you are stating it.

    i have said the school has the right to censor, limit and ban speech per SCOTUS, this is true

    and as far as the rest, that i havent said, that would of had to go to trail for us to know that

    you cant force people to hear prayer, this is true but im not sure that would win here, it would have to go to court.

    my stance is he broke the rules and the school if they wanted to could have censored his speech and or punished him
    So why are you saying now he shouldn't be punished and his entire future ruined? Think of the emotional distress he must have caused in reciting The Lord's Prayer publicly?

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    1.)So why are you saying now he shouldn't be punished and his entire future ruined?
    2.)Think of the emotional distress he must have caused in reciting The Lord's Prayer publicly?
    1.) im confused now i didnt say he "shouldn't" be punished.
    I said im not advocating for him TO be punished
    im ok with him not being punished and im not sure how him being punished would ruin his entire future?

    i said if the school wanted to pull his mic and not let him participate in the rest of the ceremony that would be fine, this wouldnt ruin his life by a long shot

    2.) for me it causes none but it might have for others, regardless its a none factor in the opinions and views i have put forth in this thread
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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    On the contrary, the notion that a school having some control over school functions is anti-first amendment is absurd. It is no different than a teacher having control over his/her classroom.
    That's where you brought the argument, that isn't where it was originally. But, I'll just make the argument like this;

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    These are not ambiguous terms that were used. They're straight forward.

    Im my opinion, anything, since time began, whether or not the SCOTUS ruled one way or another, whether it seems to be counter-intuitive, whether it is a big ole pain in the ass, anything that prohibits or abridges the free exercising of religion or freedom of speech, is directly violating the simply put words of the First Amendment.

    Now, my theology/philosophy is panentheistic, I wouldn't be considered your traditional Christian, though I am an ardent supporter of the social teachings of the Church. What I am however more so is an advocate for Religious Liberty.

    That being said, anything short of the children starting a reenactment of the Holy Crusades on the school playground, I find not only tolerable, but acceptable and would encourage.

    This conversation can get broader in scope, I mean I completely disagree with the pedagogical methods employed in our primary and secondary schools today. Rote memorization is only something that is needed to cover the basics and it is necessary in math and science but yet we find that this method is employed all the way through K-12, and well into college. It isn't until graduate work that we actually see some independent thought shine through. Even then it is limited, usually dealing with the prejudices of professors, and conforming to their tastes.

    Our school system isn't one that educates, it indoctrinates -- forcing on our children what the current political fancies of the time happen to be. Don't make a stink. Follow the orders of your superiors without question. Don't express yourself, don't be different, accept everything that is different. Don't offend anyone, just bottle your feelings up inside you.

    Do you know what this spawns? Passive Aggressive behavior. Ever go out? To work? To a social function? To the store?? It is on display, the upswing of this abnormality is so predominant, I don't believe I'd think you were being honest if you said you couldn't see it. Now I hope you understand I'm not saying that a grad speech not being allowed to have a prayer is the root cause, it is much bigger than that.

    The point is people need to be able to express themselves, there is a time and a place for everything, yes, I whole heart-ed agree. Saying that -- I find a grad speech, time given to an individual student in recognition for his accomplishments, if he feels that that time, his time should be spent praying to God, than that is the right time and the right place. It is about the individual student, not the prejudices of the audience.







    Who said I was offended by what he said? (btw, I am a Christian myself and have recited the Lord's Prayer on numerous occasions.)

    I was speaking about the conversation in general, not ours specifically.

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    So what? It still happened at school.
    It's not for the teacher to control, its for her superiors.

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    So what? It still happened at school. A teacher has control over content in the classroom just as administration has control over school functions. Is the connection that hard to follow?
    They have control over free speech?
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.

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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    114 pages and the basic facts havent changed

    The school has every right to censor, limit or not allow a privileged speech that is given at a school function.

    now with that said people can debate thier opinions all they want about whether the kid did a good thing, bad thing etc etc but if the facts wont change.

    also there is still ZERO proof the school censored the kids speech.
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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by davidtaylorjr View Post
    They have control over free speech?
    To some degree, absolutely. Free speech is never an absolute anyhow. The school can decide, if a student says something they don't like, to suspend or expel the student from the school. That's controlling free speech, isn't it? They can take punitive measures to control what can and cannot be said within the school walls. However, in this particular case, there really are no more punitive punishments the school can apply to the student, the student is already beyond their control and influence. There's nothing they can do to the student to stop them from behaving the same way again. This has nothing to do with religion, the valedictorian could have gotten up there and cussed out the audience, the administrators, the teachers and all the other students and there wouldn't be a damn thing anyone could do about it. It's not illegal and if it ever saw the inside of a courtroom, it would be an open and shut free speech case.

    This is what happens when you provide people with an open forum to speak and you have no control over what they actually say. These things happen. It's not a good thing or a bad thing that they happen, just a true thing.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    I'm still confused as to where this kid established a state religion.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  9. #1139
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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I'm still confused as to where this kid established a state religion.
    Anyone who says he did is wrong. He just made a serious error in good judgement.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #1140
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    Re: Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Anyone who says he did is wrong. He just made a serious error in good judgement.
    What error was made? Is free speech now frowned upon depending on where it is located?
    I don't often change my signature, but this was just too over the top to let anyone forget with what this country is up against...
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