Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor? [W:64]

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

TheNextEra said:

Manning at best is someone who broke the law and did not do so IMO as a whistle blower, but to gain notariety. At worse, he is a traitor.

If he really was trying to be a whistle blower, he would have only done so with the material he through was wrong and not hundreds of thousands of cables.

He should be in prison the rest of his life IMO. I take security clearances and what they mean seriously.

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Pvt. Manning was a gay soldier who found out his lover was cheating on him. Gays serving in the military or the intelligence community have a established track record of doing stupid things when their sexual orientation interferes with their duty.

Most straight soldiers are able to still perform when they get a "Dear John Letter." Gay's seem to go bananas when they get a "Dear John Letter."

That's why gays are still not allowed to serve in most of the worlds intelligence services and where gays are allowed to openly serve in the military are denied top intelligence security clearance.

Remember Clayton Hartwig and the 47 sailors who were killed on the USS Wisconsin 16" gun turret explosion ? Remember the Navy's first findings after the investigation ? Remember how the gay activist demanded that a different finding be issued ? The Navy was ordered to change their investigation findings.

Manning is a traitor.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

They were in a helicopter that could have moved closer to the scene for a better look at over a hundred mph. Binoculars would have made identification easy. Your argument doesn't wash. I remember "free fire zones" in Vietnam. Shoot everything. Farmers that are overrun by one army going south one week and the next week overrun by an army going north, food stolen, women raped, stuff trashed, just trying to survive and since we were aircrew, we were authorized to and expected to shoot up the farmer's hooch from the air, not caring if anyone inside. Military logic, sucked then, sucks now. Still lipstick on a pig.

Bradley Manning is guilty of exposing the truth!

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.... Did you even watch the video?





This isn't the 1960s any more. Those images are already pretty damn clear, and they were taken from over two miles away. A simple pair of binoculars wouldn't have made them any clearer.

Again, the simple fact of the matter here remains that these people had absolutely no business loitering around a military convoy in the first place. Nine hundred and ninety nine times out of a thousand in these kinds of situations, when you seem someone behaving in the manner these men were, they are getting ready to attack, and hestitation is only going to wind up getting your own men killed.

The apache crew behaved appropriately given the information they had available.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Gathomas88 said:

.... Did you even watch the video?

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This isn't the 1960s any more. Those images are already pretty damn clear, and they were taken from over two miles away. A simple pair of binoculars wouldn't have made them any clearer.

Again, the simple fact of the matter here remains that these people had absolutely no business loitering around a military convoy in the first place. Nine hundred and ninety nine times out of a thousand in these kinds of situations, when you seem someone behaving in the manner these men were, they are getting ready to attack, and hestitation is only going to wind up getting your own men killed.

The apache crew behaved appropriately given the information they had available.

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You always have citizens who live/belong in an area and it is the soldier's duty to sort them out. I don't see a bunch of weapons and insurgents would all be armed. Like you said two miles away. A closer view was mandated. Bradley Manning is guilty of spreading truth, the American Way.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

They were in a helicopter that could have moved closer to the scene for a better look at over a hundred mph. Binoculars would have made identification easy. Your argument doesn't wash. I remember "free fire zones" in Vietnam. Shoot everything. Farmers that are overrun by one army going south one week and the next week overrun by an army going north, food stolen, women raped, stuff trashed, just trying to survive and since we were aircrew, we were authorized to and expected to shoot up the farmer's hooch from the air, not caring if anyone inside. Military logic, sucked then, sucks now. Still lipstick on a pig.

Bradley Manning is guilty of exposing the truth!

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the truth as the far left sees it - which, like the view from the Far Right, rarely has any connection to the actual truth.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

You always have citizens who live/belong in an area and it is the soldier's duty to sort them out. I don't see a bunch of weapons and insurgents would all be armed. Like you said two miles away. A closer view was mandated. Bradley Manning is guilty of spreading truth, the American Way.

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The civilians "living in the area" know better than to approach one of our convoys. Giving everyone the benefit of a "closer look" is how you wind up with tragic events like the one shown in the video below.



I don't know about you, but I'm not going to risk my life on the off chance that a potentially threatening individual might happen to be merely incredibly stupid rather than actively malicious. If they're not smart enough to act with the extra care a given sitution requires, that is their problem, not mine.

Quite franky, if, as a soldier, you can look at a any large group of men loitering near your position in a war zone and assume that they're not up to something, you deserve the horrible death that's about to come to you.

Hell! The men in question actually were "up to something." They were targeting US forces. The fact that they happened to be doing so with cameras rather than weapons is incidental, because the apache pilots had no possible way of being able to tell the difference.

If these journalists had simply let someone know their intentions before hand, they would still be alive today.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Gathomas88 said:

The civilians "living in the area" know better than to approach one of our convoys. Giving everyone the benefit of a "closer look" is how you wind up with tragic events like the one shown in the video below.



I don't know about you, but I'm not going to risk my life on the off chance that a potentially threatening individual might happen to be merely incredibly stupid rather than actively malicious. If they're not smart enough to act with the extra care a given sitution requires, that is their problem, not mine.

Quite franky, if, as a soldier, you can look at a any large group of men loitering near your position in a war zone and assume that they're not up to something, you deserve the horrible death that's about to come to you.

Hell! The men in question actually were "up to something." They were targeting US forces. The fact that they happened to be doing so with cameras rather than weapons is incidental, because the apache pilots had no possible way of being able to tell the difference.

If these journalists had simply let someone know their intentions before hand, they would still be alive today.

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I could just agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

Poll options
Traitor
Hero
Whistleblower
Manning deserves a medal
Military classification is for cover ups
Time to try the Military

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None of the above. If found guilty, he is a criminal. There is no excuse for his alleged actions.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

APACHERAT said:

Pvt. Manning was a gay soldier who found out his lover was cheating on him. Gays serving in the military or the intelligence community have a established track record of doing stupid things when their sexual orientation interferes with their duty.

Most straight soldiers are able to still perform when they get a "Dear John Letter." Gay's seem to go bananas when they get a "Dear John Letter."

That's why gays are still not allowed to serve in most of the worlds intelligence services and where gays are allowed to openly serve in the military are denied top intelligence security clearance.

Remember Clayton Hartwig and the 47 sailors who were killed on the USS Wisconsin 16" gun turret explosion ? Remember the Navy's first findings after the investigation ? Remember how the gay activist demanded that a different finding be issued ? The Navy was ordered to change their investigation findings.

Manning is a traitor.

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Good lord, the stupid, it burns!

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

I could just agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

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I'd much rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. If a soldier feels any other way about it, they're a fool, and very likely a dead fool at that.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Redress said:

Good lord, the stupid, it burns!

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Surprised you took your head out of the sand to respond.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

APACHERAT said:

Pvt. Manning was a gay soldier who found out his lover was cheating on him. Gays serving in the military or the intelligence community have a established track record of doing stupid things when their sexual orientation interferes with their duty.

Most straight soldiers are able to still perform when they get a "Dear John Letter." Gay's seem to go bananas when they get a "Dear John Letter."

That's why gays are still not allowed to serve in most of the worlds intelligence services and where gays are allowed to openly serve in the military are denied top intelligence security clearance.

Remember Clayton Hartwig and the 47 sailors who were killed on the USS Wisconsin 16" gun turret explosion ? Remember the Navy's first findings after the investigation ? Remember how the gay activist demanded that a different finding be issued ? The Navy was ordered to change their investigation findings.

Manning is a traitor.

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What a bunch of homophobic garbage.

Yes, Manning deserves to be in jail for the rest of his life, but the rest of the crap you spewed is just crap. I've seen plenty of heterosexual men do stupid things in the military.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

APACHERAT said:

Surprised you took your head out of the sand to respond.

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Suprised you were able to still type with your head firmly up your ass.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

TheNextEra said:

What a bunch of homophobic garbage.

Yes, Manning deserves to be in jail for the rest of his life, but the rest of the crap you spewed is just crap. I've seen plenty of heterosexual men do stupid things in the military.

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>" the Army should bear the blame, since it gave Manning access to state secrets even though officers knew Manning was emotionally unstable, due largely to gender-confusion and being gay when "don't ask, don't tell" was still the law. Could this novel "gay soldier" defense actually work? "< -> WikiLeaks: Will a 'gay soldier' defense help Bradley Manning? - The Week



>" Honor gay hero Bradley Manning volume: volume 34
issue 3
June 2013
In April, former grand marshals for San Francisco Gay Pride made nominations for marshals for this year’s parade and voted, as usual. A winner was Bradley Manning, the gay soldier who leaked classified documents that proved war crimes by the U.S. government in Iraq and Afghanistan, among many other offenses.

The president of the SF Pride board, Lisa Williams, immediately countermanded the decision. Williams’ career is in managing Democratic Party campaigns, which probably explains why her statement reads as though it was dictated by the prosecutor in Manning’s case.

Most Pride events have transformed into corporate-sponsored extravaganzas that suppress the original radical messages of gay liberation. But the battle for the soul of Pride lives on. San Francisco organizations from ACT UP to the gay-centered American Legion Post 315 protested the disavowal of Manning. A New York City coalition including the Freedom Socialist Party is organizing a Bradley Manning Pride contingent there.

With his court martial set to start on June 3, Manning deserves the support of his LGBT sisters and brothers — and the support of every peacenik and anti-imperialist. To find out about a June 1 rally at Fort Meade and other support events, visit Bradley Manning Support Network "<

Freedom Socialist editorial: Honor gay hero Bradley Manning | www.socialism.com


Excerpts:

>" Frontline says Manning used social media to show his support for the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell and gay marriage, and even posted pictures of himself at gay rights rallies with pro-gay signs. His father and others expressed concern over the public display of his sexual orientation while under the U.S. military's DADT policy.

It's reported that Manning had a relationship with Tyler Watkins a student in Boston, and was introduced there to a group of computer science students and "hackers." Frontline says Manning went to Iraq, but returned to find that Watkins wanted to break off their relationship. The show adds that Manning took the news that Watkins began a new relationship very hard. (Frontline / PBS)

For more, see the New York Times' profile of Manning from March 2011, another report which delved into his gay life. "< 'Frontline' examines gay life of Bradley Manning and his difficult Army experience - Last Word

>" "He's a runt, so pick on him. He's crazy, pick on him. He's a faggot, pick on him. The guy took it from every side. He couldn't please anyone."

The Guardian says Manning was sent to Iraq despite indications of his "unfit" mental state, and was eventually sent back to Boston where he had a boyfriend attending college, Tyler Watkins. However, Manning returned to find that his relationship had fallen apart. A friend of Manning's, Keith Rose, says of the situation:

''It ended seemingly abruptly, but Brad didn't really know that.... He wanted to feel like a hero, like you hear in the stories. He had just come back from a war... instead, he was met with a boyfriend who didn't want him, and basically no friends at all.''

The Guardian says Manning was then returned to Iraq where he had a physical altercation with his female commander. He left a number of messages of frustration on Facebook, including this to his ex-boyfriend:

''I live in a very real world, where deaths and detainments are just statistics; where idealistic calls for 'liberation' and 'freedom' are utterly meaningless.... I don't have a real place to call home, except for a trailer with a bunk, a laptop, and an alarm clock. Please don't let the LAST PERSON that I trust and care about go away. I haven't given up.'' "< More revealed about Bradley Manning's gay past; PBS site hacked after airing 'Wikisecrets' [video] - Last Word


Defend Bradley Manning our Gay Hero!
1st June: Defend Bradley Manning our Gay Hero! | Global Women's Strike

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

I'd like to stay largely out of this conversation, but fwiw I think the Collateral Murder video was very important, I'm glad people got to see it, and I think those involved in decrypting it (which manning isn't even alleged to have done) should be damn proud of themselves.

Collateral Murder - Wikileaks - Iraq - YouTube

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Aunt Spiker said:

He's a traitor . . . I'm puzzled at the whistleblower notion - what did he reveal? What concern did he have?

None.

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I don't know him so I cannot say for sure what his motives were. But the information hereleased did include video/information on the Granai air strike which resulted in the deaths of 86-147 people (mostly women and children). An act far more egregious than anything Manning had done.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Dapper Andy said:

Did he really choose what he released or just grabbed whatever he could then put it on the internet?

I have a difficult time believing he read even a small fraction of the 250,000 or so files he downloaded.

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I don't think you have to read a document from beginning to end to know what its about.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

He obviously had access to real secrets and didn't reveal any. No weapons info. No Logistics info. No security info. He chose what he released.

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No, he didn't. He mass-downloaded classified documents (lots of them State Department Cables) onto CD's that he'd marked as 'Music' and then data-dumped it all straight to WikiLeaks.

Manning is no hero. He's a traitor, an he's put others at risk in order to engage in his own version of snotty 15 year old rebellion against authority. If it wasn't unconstitutional I'd be tempted to support having him doused in kerosene, set on fire, and having a tape of the event added to the briefing you get when you are read in to TS/SCI.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

APACHERAT said:

Gays serving in the military or the intelligence community have a established track record of doing stupid things when their sexual orientation interferes with their duty.

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Take your bigotry to Stormfront buddy.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

cpwill said:

If it wasn't unconstitutional I'd be tempted to support having him doused in kerosene, set on fire, and having a tape of the event added to the briefing you get when you are read in to TS/SCI.

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So nice to know a piece of paper would stop you from committing a horrendous act of torture. Would you do the same to soldiers who have actually willingly murdered Iraqis and Afghans?

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Geoist said:

So nice to know a piece of paper would stop you from committing a horrendous act of torture.

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It's not a piece of paper. It's the Constitution. And it's not torture so much as it is a particularly awful form of execution. And you'll note that I didn't say I would commit such an act, I said I would be tempted to support doing so. If you are going to get on a high horse to make a moral charge, you may wish to make sure your horse is pointed in the right direction.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Geoist said:

I don't think you have to read a document from beginning to end to know what its about.

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No but at 250,000+ documents I have a very difficult time believing he read just one word from each.

As a point of reference, War & Peace has about 500,000 words.

And I don't think you can get much from reading one word in a document.

It's your business if you want to make yourself look foolish defending him but it seems far more likely he just copied files he had access to without having any real idea what the files were.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Geoist said:

So nice to know a piece of paper would stop you from committing a horrendous act of torture. Would you do the same to soldiers who have actually willingly murdered Iraqis and Afghans?

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It is kinda nice to know that the law of the land is something he considers worth following isn't it? cpwill and I do not agree on much, but we do both agree that Manning's acts where particularly heinous and deserving of the maximum punishment under the law if he is found guilty. I think we would also agree that soldiers guilty of murdering any one and found guilty of such in court should likewise be punished to the full extent of the law. If a member of the military has evidence of a criminal act, they can safely take action as outlined here: 10 USC § 1034 - Protected communications; prohibition of retaliatory personnel actions | Title 10 - Armed Forces | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute . They are protected then from reprisals. Note that what Manning did is completely different. Mass release of confidential documents, or even the release of any confidential document to the media is not protected and is a criminal act. There is good reason for this.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Geoist said:

Take your bigotry to Stormfront buddy.

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Did I hurt your feelings ?
Be a man.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

I agree with you regarding Manning's culpability, but your homophobic comments are disgusting and would not be out of place at Stormfront. It reveals something really unpleasant about you.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

cpwill said:

It's not a piece of paper. It's the Constitution.

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I know what it is. I just am fascinated that only man-made law, and not conscience or morality or faith, is what stops you from doing something so heinous.

And it's not torture so much as it is a particularly awful form of execution.

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AKA torture before death.

And you'll note that I didn't say I would commit such an act, I said I would be tempted to support doing so.

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I do believe you said it is the Constitution that stops you from doing it.