View Poll Results: Is Bradley Manning a Whistleblower or Traitor?

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  • Traitor

    7 35.00%
  • Hero

    9 45.00%
  • Whistleblower

    9 45.00%
  • Manning deserves a medal.

    8 40.00%
  • Military classification is for cover ups.

    4 20.00%
  • Time to try the military.

    3 15.00%
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Thread: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor? [W:64]

  1. #21
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    Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    The United States should be in the dock, not Bradley Manning - Comment - Voices - The Independent"The whistleblower has allowed us to scrutinise the hidden realities of US power'
    "No wonder powerful interests in the US want to make an example of Manning. Among the videos he released was an Apache helicopter conducting a bombing raid that killed Iraqi civilians and a Reuters journalist. “The most alarming aspect of the video to me was the seemingly delightful bloodlust they appeared to have,” Manning has said, appalled by the lack of “value for human life” shown by the pilots’ descriptions of “dead bastards”. Here was the “on-the-ground reality” of both the Iraq and Afghan wars, he claimed."
    The United States should be in the dock, not Bradley Manning - Comment - Voices - The Independent Is Manning a whistleblower? Is Manning a spy? Is this a giant cover up and Manning the goat? This is as clean as I can make this because my "enter" key doesn't work in this forum today.

    Screw Bradley Manning and the European left wing press that has tried to turn him into some kind of folk hero. He's an American soldier who, if he didn't commit treason, came damned close.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    I've seen the video; multiple times, as a matter of fact.

    It shows a suspicious group of military aged males, carrying a lot of equipment that looks strikingly similar to RPGs and AK-47s, snooping around and pointing said equipment in the direction of a military convoy. If I had been piloting that apache, I would've done exactly the same thing. They appeared to a threat.

    Frankly, given the general level of ignorance and idiocy displayed by most civilians on the subject, I don't even necessarily disagree with the military's decision not to release the video. Making it publically available for every uneducated loon to "analyze" simply hasn't resulted in anything productive.

    I understand perfectly. There is the truth and then there is what people want to believe. You probably believe that Saddam/Iraq was a threat. Truth: Saddam/Iraq not a threat, ergo the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi dead are on our collective consciences. You and yours will work diligently to cover up the truth and I understand that and so this gets your view in print.

  3. #23
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    Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    I understand perfectly. There is the truth and then there is what people want to believe. You probably believe that Saddam/Iraq was a threat. Truth: Saddam/Iraq not a threat, ergo the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi dead are on our collective consciences. You and yours will work diligently to cover up the truth and I understand that and so this gets your view in print.
    Don't try and change the subject. The question of whether or not the Iraq War happens to have been justified is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not the apache pilots' actions were justified in this particular incident.

    The facts of the matter here remain as follows:

    1. The incident took place in an area where US forces had taken fire from enemy combatants on several occasions over the course of the last few weeks.

    2. The journalists did not inform the military that they were going to be in the area.

    3. They were attempting to film a military convoy (again, in a war zone) in such a manner as to avoid being seen by the soldiers in that convoy.

    5. They were not only carrying equipment that could be easily mistaken for weaponry from a distance, but they were actively pointing it at American soldiers from concealed positions.

    Simply put, the apache crew would be guilty of gross negligence if they had not fired upon those men. They had absolutely no reason to suspect that the camera crew was not a group of insurgents getting ready to ambush the convoy they had been tasked with protecting.

    Regardless of whether it was by design or accident, the journalists in question basically committed "sucide by US military," as far as I'm concerned. If they had wanted to live, they would have followed the proper procedures. It's as simple as that.

    Frankly, I'm not even really sure why I'm trying to explan this to you. It's quite obvious that you don't have the slightest idea what goes into military SOPs or Rules of Engagement, and are simply using a tragic accident as an an excuse to further your own anti-military agenda.

    Pray tell, how would you have dealt with the situation? Walk right up and say "hi?"
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 06-05-13 at 06:11 PM.

  4. #24
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    Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Completely and utterly incorrect.

    "The defense is saying, no, he specifically was selective with the information he released. He wasn't releasing stuff that could damage the United States, but stuff that he wanted to do that would create a dialogue with the American public. He was thinking about American people, not about the enemy."

    Trial Begins for Bradley Manning Over Leaked Classified Documents | PBS NewsHour | June 3, 2013 | PBS
    Which is what you would expect the defense to say. Even IF true, not his place to "create a dialogue with the American public" in fact he's signed a number of docs beforehand saying that's what he's prohibitted from doing. A lame excuse in any event, true or not.

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    Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Don't try and change the subject. The question of whether or not the Iraq War happens to have been justified is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not the apache pilots' actions were justified in this particular incident.

    The facts of the matter here remain as follows:

    1. The incident took place in an area where US forces had taken fire from enemy combatants on several occasions over the course of the last few weeks.

    2. The journalists did not inform the military that they were going to be in the area.

    3. They were attempting to film a military convoy (again, in a war zone) in such a manner as to avoid being seen by the soldiers in that convoy.

    5. They were not only carrying equipment that could be easily mistaken for weaponry from a distance, but they were actively pointing it at American soldiers from concealed positions.

    Simply put, the apache crew would be guilty of gross negligence if they had not fired upon those men. They had absolutely no reason to suspect that the camera crew was not a group of insurgents getting ready to ambush the convoy they had been tasked with protecting.

    Regardless of whether it was by design or accident, the journalists in question basically committed "sucide by US military," as far as I'm concerned. If they had wanted to live, they would have followed the proper procedures. It's as simple as that.

    Frankly, I'm not even really sure why I'm trying to explan this to you. It's quite obvious that you don't have the slightest idea what goes into military SOPs or Rules of Engagement, and are simply using a tragic accident as an an excuse to further your own anti-military agenda.

    Pray tell, how would you have dealt with the situation? Walk right up and say "hi?"

    They were in a helicopter that could have moved closer to the scene for a better look at over a hundred mph. Binoculars would have made identification easy. Your argument doesn't wash. I remember "free fire zones" in Vietnam. Shoot everything. Farmers that are overrun by one army going south one week and the next week overrun by an army going north, food stolen, women raped, stuff trashed, just trying to survive and since we were aircrew, we were authorized to and expected to shoot up the farmer's hooch from the air, not caring if anyone inside. Military logic, sucked then, sucks now. Still lipstick on a pig.

    Bradley Manning is guilty of exposing the truth!

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    Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Manning at best is someone who broke the law and did not do so IMO as a whistle blower, but to gain notariety. At worse, he is a traitor.

    If he really was trying to be a whistle blower, he would have only done so with the material he through was wrong and not hundreds of thousands of cables.

    He should be in prison the rest of his life IMO. I take security clearances and what they mean seriously.
    Pvt. Manning was a gay soldier who found out his lover was cheating on him. Gays serving in the military or the intelligence community have a established track record of doing stupid things when their sexual orientation interferes with their duty.

    Most straight soldiers are able to still perform when they get a "Dear John Letter." Gay's seem to go bananas when they get a "Dear John Letter."

    That's why gays are still not allowed to serve in most of the worlds intelligence services and where gays are allowed to openly serve in the military are denied top intelligence security clearance.

    Remember Clayton Hartwig and the 47 sailors who were killed on the USS Wisconsin 16" gun turret explosion ? Remember the Navy's first findings after the investigation ? Remember how the gay activist demanded that a different finding be issued ? The Navy was ordered to change their investigation findings.

    Manning is a traitor.

  7. #27
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    Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    They were in a helicopter that could have moved closer to the scene for a better look at over a hundred mph. Binoculars would have made identification easy. Your argument doesn't wash. I remember "free fire zones" in Vietnam. Shoot everything. Farmers that are overrun by one army going south one week and the next week overrun by an army going north, food stolen, women raped, stuff trashed, just trying to survive and since we were aircrew, we were authorized to and expected to shoot up the farmer's hooch from the air, not caring if anyone inside. Military logic, sucked then, sucks now. Still lipstick on a pig.

    Bradley Manning is guilty of exposing the truth!
    .... Did you even watch the video?

    Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor? [W:64]-article-1263822-09041d48000005dc-859_468x330-jpg

    Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor? [W:64]-178017-extrait-video-diffusee-wikileaks-mois-jpg

    This isn't the 1960s any more. Those images are already pretty damn clear, and they were taken from over two miles away. A simple pair of binoculars wouldn't have made them any clearer.

    Again, the simple fact of the matter here remains that these people had absolutely no business loitering around a military convoy in the first place. Nine hundred and ninety nine times out of a thousand in these kinds of situations, when you seem someone behaving in the manner these men were, they are getting ready to attack, and hestitation is only going to wind up getting your own men killed.

    The apache crew behaved appropriately given the information they had available.

  8. #28
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    Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    .... Did you even watch the video?

    Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor? [W:64]-article-1263822-09041d48000005dc-859_468x330-jpg

    Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor? [W:64]-178017-extrait-video-diffusee-wikileaks-mois-jpg

    This isn't the 1960s any more. Those images are already pretty damn clear, and they were taken from over two miles away. A simple pair of binoculars wouldn't have made them any clearer.

    Again, the simple fact of the matter here remains that these people had absolutely no business loitering around a military convoy in the first place. Nine hundred and ninety nine times out of a thousand in these kinds of situations, when you seem someone behaving in the manner these men were, they are getting ready to attack, and hestitation is only going to wind up getting your own men killed.

    The apache crew behaved appropriately given the information they had available.
    You always have citizens who live/belong in an area and it is the soldier's duty to sort them out. I don't see a bunch of weapons and insurgents would all be armed. Like you said two miles away. A closer view was mandated. Bradley Manning is guilty of spreading truth, the American Way.

  9. #29
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    Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    They were in a helicopter that could have moved closer to the scene for a better look at over a hundred mph. Binoculars would have made identification easy. Your argument doesn't wash. I remember "free fire zones" in Vietnam. Shoot everything. Farmers that are overrun by one army going south one week and the next week overrun by an army going north, food stolen, women raped, stuff trashed, just trying to survive and since we were aircrew, we were authorized to and expected to shoot up the farmer's hooch from the air, not caring if anyone inside. Military logic, sucked then, sucks now. Still lipstick on a pig.

    Bradley Manning is guilty of exposing the truth!
    the truth as the far left sees it - which, like the view from the Far Right, rarely has any connection to the actual truth.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    You always have citizens who live/belong in an area and it is the soldier's duty to sort them out. I don't see a bunch of weapons and insurgents would all be armed. Like you said two miles away. A closer view was mandated. Bradley Manning is guilty of spreading truth, the American Way.
    The civilians "living in the area" know better than to approach one of our convoys. Giving everyone the benefit of a "closer look" is how you wind up with tragic events like the one shown in the video below.



    I don't know about you, but I'm not going to risk my life on the off chance that a potentially threatening individual might happen to be merely incredibly stupid rather than actively malicious. If they're not smart enough to act with the extra care a given sitution requires, that is their problem, not mine.

    Quite franky, if, as a soldier, you can look at a any large group of men loitering near your position in a war zone and assume that they're not up to something, you deserve the horrible death that's about to come to you.

    Hell! The men in question actually were "up to something." They were targeting US forces. The fact that they happened to be doing so with cameras rather than weapons is incidental, because the apache pilots had no possible way of being able to tell the difference.

    If these journalists had simply let someone know their intentions before hand, they would still be alive today.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 06-05-13 at 08:58 PM.

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