View Poll Results: Can the Bill of Rights be legally amended with other Amendments?

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  • YES - anything in the Constitution is subject to the Amendment process.

    43 84.31%
  • NO - you cannot amend anything which changes any provision in the Bill of Rights

    8 15.69%
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Thread: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

  1. #71
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    friend, as i have suggested before.... please read the federalist papers which explain the Constitution,.

    federalist 39 states clearly we have republican government, federalist 10 states we do not have democratic government, and federalist 40 states we have a mixed Constitution, where powers are divided between the states and the people.
    Just to make this clear for the historically ignorant: the federalist papers do not explain the constitution. They explain the author's(Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay) views and opinions of the constitution and why it should be ratified. So unless you think they held the only views and opinions on the constitution, you have to realize that they are just what they claim to be, opinion. Note also this quote from the Federalist Papers, where Hamilton talks about the Bill of Rights:

    I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and in the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed constitution, but would even be dangerous.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  2. #72
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    well you missed something...in my second line of my statement....."the founders state our rights come from the creator, not from government or the people themselves, which they state this in the DOI, that it is self -evident, and that rights preexist before the u.s. constitution.
    Self evident? The term one uses when they cannot prove what they allege apparently.

    The CREATOR is a self adopted belief because someone want to accept that religious belief. It or He or She cannot be proven to exist let alone sit on high and bestowing natural rights upon people like rain showers in April.

    And the Dec of Ind was our birth announcement which served its purpose and was put on the shelf having done its job. A few years after it was written nobody thought much about it nor cared about it. Read Pauline Maier and learn

    http://www.amazon.com/American-Scrip...0283190&sr=1-2

    I believe one of those obvious, beyond arguing about, no doubt about it, beyond the level of proven fact, set in 100 foot thick cement, and the equal of Moses being given the Ten Commandments on the mountain was a statement about equality and rights written by a slave holder. Your self evident truths are a sick and very sad joke.

    The Preamble to The Bill of Rights
    My copy of the US Constitution contains the first ten amendment but strangely there is no "preamble" there for me to read. Why is that?
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-03-13 at 03:14 PM.
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  3. #73
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    ask yourself this:

    "congress shall make no law" stated in the first amendment.

    this means congress can take make no action law to overturn the first amendment

    yet you are saying congress can take action and create an amendment.

    i stated the constitution can be changed , the bill of rights cannot becuase they are restrictive to the federal government......and i have stated this many times,...how is it you missed it?
    Fixed the first part for you. "No action" is not the same as "no law".



    I never said that. What I have said multiple times and what you keep ignoring is that Congress can not make an Amendment, all they can do is proposed one. Only the States by a 3/4 agreement (a collective agreement of 38/50 States as of 1959) can make an Amendment. Your argument and reading comprehension skills continue to fail.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-03-13 at 03:19 PM.
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  4. #74
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So you have some kind of government advisory job and you don't even know how the constitution works.

    Outstanding!
    Other than your usual snide personal drive by attack on me, one cannot help but notice that you utterly were and are woefully impotent to point out one single thing I said that is factually incorrect.

    But attack again you will.
    __________________________________________________ _
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Just to make this clear for the historically ignorant: the federalist papers do not explain the constitution. They explain the author's(Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay) views and opinions of the constitution and why it should be ratified. So unless you think they held the only views and opinions on the constitution, you have to realize that they are just what they claim to be, opinion. Note also this quote from the Federalist Papers, where Hamilton talks about the Bill of Rights:

    you are 100% correct with your quote...........Hamilton and Madison BOTH stated that a bill of rights was NOT needed............and why?

    becuase both men stated becuase the federal government was delegated only 18 powers under the federal constitution, there was no way the federal government could infringe on rights. ...however george mason and other demanded a bill of rights, and Madison agreed and wrote them.

    Madison was a federalist during the constitutional convention ,but became an anti federalists later after the alien and sedition act.

    “This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Fixed the first part for you. "No action" is not the same as "no law".



    I never said that. What I have said multiple times and what you keep ignoring is that Congress can not make an Amendment, all they can do is proposed one. Only the States by a 3/4 agreement (a collective agreement of 38 States as of 1959) can make an Amendment. Your argument and reading comprehension skills continue to fail.
    the first states ...congress shall make no law.......your saying congress can create an amendment to try to get around the first amendment and abolish it so they can make a law.

    again....... declaratory and restrictive clauses towards the federal government.

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    you are 100% correct with your quote...........Hamilton and Madison BOTH stated that a bill of rights was NOT needed............and why?

    becuase both men stated becuase the federal government was delegated only 18 powers under the federal constitution, there was no way the federal government could not infringe on rights. ...however george mason and other demanded a bill of rights, and Madison agreed and wrote them.

    Madison was a federalist during the constitutional convention ,but became an anti federalists later after the alien and sedition act.

    “This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83
    That is correct roughly. They felt that enumerating rights would in fact limit rights. However, you cannot use the Federalist Papers, which are opinion and opposed to a bill of rights, as a way of claiming that the Bill of Rights cannot be superseded by amendment. Clearly, based on what was put in the constitution itself, they can. Adding wild interpretations to the constitution which simply do not exist in the text not flows from that text naturally is very common, especially for libertarians, but ultimately false, as is claiming that the Federalist Papers where anything other than the opinions of 3 men.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  8. #78
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the first states ...congress shall make no law.......your saying congress can create an amendment to try to get around the first amendment and abolish it so they can make a law.
    Congress can't create an Amendment, why is that so hard for you to understand when it's plainly written in the Constitution? Maybe you should quite reading the Federalist Papers and start reading what was actually signed. You seem to have missed several important points.

    Only an agreement of 38/50 States can make an Amendment.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-03-13 at 03:24 PM.
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That is correct roughly. They felt that enumerating rights would in fact limit rights. However, you cannot use the Federalist Papers, which are opinion and opposed to a bill of rights, as a way of claiming that the Bill of Rights cannot be superseded by amendment. Clearly, based on what was put in the constitution itself, they can. Adding wild interpretations to the constitution which simply do not exist in the text not flows from that text naturally is very common, especially for libertarians, but ultimately false, as is claiming that the Federalist Papers where anything other than the opinions of 3 men.
    you are correct that is why we have the 9th amendment, becuase we have more rights than are enumerated.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

    rights are unalienable ...........if the could be amended or repealed, then they would not be unalienable.



    The Preamble to The Bill of Rights

    Congress of the United States
    begun and held at the City of New-York, on
    Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

    THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.


    who are the clauses which makeup the bill of rights, established 2 years after the constitution declaratory and restrictive too?...the federal government!

    also read the American founding fathers who state....they cannot be amended or repealed.

    "[You have Rights] antecedent to all earthly governments:
    Rights, that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws;
    Rights, derived from the Great Legislator of the universe."

    by:John Adams


    Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man.

    by : Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Congress can't create an Amendment, why is that so hard for you to understand when it's plainly written in the Constitution? Maybe you should quite reading the Federalist Papers and start reading what was actually signed. You seem to have missed several important points.

    Only an agreement of 38/50 States can make an Amendment.
    because the Constitution itself, that creates the federal government, has clauses which can be AMENDED.......the clauses of the bill of rights CANNOT BE AMENDED, BECAUSE THEY ARE RESTRICTIVE CLAUSES towards the federal government.

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