View Poll Results: Can the Bill of Rights be legally amended with other Amendments?

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  • YES - anything in the Constitution is subject to the Amendment process.

    43 84.31%
  • NO - you cannot amend anything which changes any provision in the Bill of Rights

    8 15.69%
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Thread: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

  1. #211
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I am well aware of that, but that didn't really answer the question, did it?


    If the Bill of Rights is ONE document (as you've claimed) that was sent to the States then it follows that either all of it was ratified - meaning all twelve amendments and the Preamble - or it wasn't.

    Since there are only ten Amendments in the Bill of Rights, the answer is obvious. There never was "one document" with ten Amendments that was sent to the States for ratification, therefore, the States didn't ratify the Preamble. That's the logical conclusion from the facts presented.


    If you have other evidence to present then do so, but your continued resistance and lack of response seems to say you have no evidence for your claim that the Preamble was ratified by the States.
    are you putting forth that the actual document was sent to all the states?

  2. #212
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    are you putting forth that the actual document was sent to all the states?
    I believe you're the one trying to do that, not me. You're the one that has claimed more than once that the Bill of Rights was one document submitted for ratification. It wasn't, as your own cites clearly show.


    The States ratify Amendments - says so right in the Constitution! - so unless your Preamble is an Amendment, on it's face it was not ratified and, therefore, not included as part of the Constitution. You're welcome to present evidence to the contrary but none has been forthcoming so far, so I really don't expect any at all.
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  3. #213
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I believe you're the one trying to do that, not me. You're the one that has claimed more than once that the Bill of Rights was one document submitted for ratification. It wasn't, as your own cites clearly show.


    The States ratify Amendments - says so right in the Constitution! - so unless your Preamble is an Amendment, on it's face it was not ratified and, therefore, not included as part of the Constitution. You're welcome to present evidence to the contrary but none has been forthcoming so far, so I really don't expect any at all.
    you should already know, that when the constitution and the bill or rights was created and send to the states.... copies were made and sent out, not the originals.

    the all of the copies be they the constitution, or the bill of rights, included the preamble on each one, and it is included in the ratification.

    both you and haymarkets arguments are very weak because you have nothing, you have made many claims, saying this is not valid that is not valid, but again your argument is plain silly.

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    you should already know, that when the constitution and the bill or rights was created and send to the states.... copies were made and sent out, not the originals.

    the all of the copies be they the constitution, or the bill of rights, included the preamble on each one, and it is included in the ratification.

    both you and haymarkets arguments are very weak because you have nothing, you have made many claims, saying this is not valid that is not valid, but again your argument is plain silly.
    When a person makes a claim that a particular historical event happened, it is 100% completely and totally incumbent upon that person to provide verifiable evidence of their claim.

    You claimed right here that the states ratified the COMPLETE DOCUMENT. You were shown to be incorrect and wrong.

    You have repeatedly claimed that the states which ratified the various Amendments making up the Bill of Rights also ratified the Preamble. But you have not presented one shred, one piece, one iota of verifiable evidence that such a thing ever happened.

    What is silly is that you make claims but cannot back them up with any verifiable evidence.
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    when a person makes a claim that a particular historical event happened, it is 100% completely and totally incumbent upon that person to provide verifiable evidence of their claim.

    You claimed right here that the states ratified the complete document. You were shown to be incorrect and wrong.

    You have repeatedly claimed that the states which ratified the various amendments making up the bill of rights also ratified the preamble. But you have not presented one shred, one piece, one iota of verifiable evidence that such a thing ever happened.

    What is silly is that you make claims but cannot back them up with any verifiable evidence.
    no what is silly, is you have nothing and yet, you have repeatly, stated many things ,rights are not unaleiable, disavowing, the federalist papers, disavowing the founding fathers, and you will continue to do this because you know your wrong, and will not admitt it.

    Are you next going to state the preamble to the constutution itself was not part of raticfication?

    Both documents to the constution and the bill of rights, in the national achives,both have at the top of them, their preambles.

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    you should already know, that when the constitution and the bill or rights was created and send to the states.... copies were made and sent out, not the originals.

    the all of the copies be they the constitution, or the bill of rights, included the preamble on each one, and it is included in the ratification.
    You have yet to produce any evidence of that.

    If they passed only 10/12 amendments on that same document it's obvious they didn't accept the thing as a whole nor vote on it as a whole. Your entire argument has been based on the assumption that the whole document was passed - and it's a patently false assumption.


    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    both you and haymarkets arguments are very weak because you have nothing, you have made many claims, saying this is not valid that is not valid, but again your argument is plain silly.
    It's your positive assertion that the BoR Preamble is part of US law, so it's on you to provide evidence of that claim, which you have continually failed to do. The burden of proof does not fall on us.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-08-13 at 11:30 AM.
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    no what is silly, is you have nothing and yet, you have repeatly, stated many things ,rights are not unaleiable, disavowing, the federalist papers, disavowing the founding fathers, and you will continue to do this because you know your wrong, and will not admitt it.

    Are you next going to state the preamble to the constutution itself was not part of raticfication?

    Both documents to the constution and the bill of rights, in the national achives,both have at the top of them, their preambles.
    No offense EB - but I am going to put this in all caps and make it big and bold because for some reason, you are just not answering the key question so I hope this gets your attention.

    ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PROVIDE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE THAT THE PREAMBLE TO THE BILL OF RIGHTS WAS RATIFIED BY ENOUGH STATES TO BECOME PART OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE USA.

    WHERE IS THIS PROOF?


    The fact that the message was Congress was sent to the states and is preserved in the Archives IS NOT EVIDENCE that such a preamble was ratified by the states and is part of the Constitution.
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  8. #218
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    No offense EB - but I am going to put this in all caps and make it big and bold because for some reason, you are just not answering the key question so I hope this gets your attention.

    ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PROVIDE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE THAT THE PREAMBLE TO THE BILL OF RIGHTS WAS RATIFIED BY ENOUGH STATES TO BECOME PART OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE USA.

    WHERE IS THIS PROOF?


    The fact that the message was Congress was sent to the states and is preserved in the Archives IS NOT EVIDENCE that such a preamble was ratified by the states and is part of the Constitution.
    haymarkey, your grasping at straws.

    no unalienable rights, was your ploy, then the federalist papers have no meaning, then Madison has no meaning, and now its the preamble has not be ratified.

    when someone write something they are the foremost authority on it, and Madison who wrote the bill of rights states clearly about them:


    James Madison, Report on the Virginia Resolutions Madison words below

    Jan. 1800

    In pursuance of the wishes thus expressed, the first Congress that assembled under the Constitution proposed certain amendments, which have since, by the necessary ratifications, been made a part of it; among which amendments is the article containing, among other prohibitions on the Congress, an express declaration that they should make no law abridging the freedom of the press.

    Without tracing farther the evidence on this subject, it would seem scarcely possible to doubt that no power whatever over the press was supposed to be delegated by the Constitution, as it originally stood, and that the amendment was intended as a positive and absolute reservation of it.

    But the evidence is still stronger. The proposition of amendments made by Congress is introduced in the following terms:

    "The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstructions or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added; and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent ends of its institutions."

    Here is the most satisfactory and authentic proof<------------- that the several amendments proposed were to be considered as either declaratory or restrictive, and, whether the one or the other as corresponding with the desire expressed by a number of the States, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government.

    Under any other construction of the amendment relating to the press, than that it declared the press to be wholly exempt from the power of Congress, the amendment could neither be said to correspond with the desire expressed by a number of the States, nor be calculated to extend the ground of public confidence in the Government.

    this case is closed, and MADISON WINS!!!!!
    Last edited by Master PO; 06-08-13 at 07:59 PM.

  9. #219
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You have yet to produce any evidence of that.

    If they passed only 10/12 amendments on that same document it's obvious they didn't accept the thing as a whole nor vote on it as a whole. Your entire argument has been based on the assumption that the whole document was passed - and it's a patently false assumption.


    It's your positive assertion that the BoR Preamble is part of US law, so it's on you to provide evidence of that claim, which you have continually failed to do. The burden of proof does not fall on us.
    MADISON'S OWN WORDS ON THE BILL OF RIGHTS:

    Here is the most satisfactory and authentic proof<------------- that the several amendments proposed were to be considered as either declaratory or restrictive, and, whether the one or the other as corresponding with the desire expressed by a number of the States, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government.

  10. #220
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    haymarkey, your grasping at straws.
    NO. All I am demanding that you do is show us verifiable evidence that your precious Preamble to the Bill of Rights was ratified by the states.

    And you are woefully impotent to do that.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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