View Poll Results: Can the Bill of Rights be legally amended with other Amendments?

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  • YES - anything in the Constitution is subject to the Amendment process.

    43 84.31%
  • NO - you cannot amend anything which changes any provision in the Bill of Rights

    8 15.69%
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Thread: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

  1. #181
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    so are you making the point that what the founders have to say about the constitution, and what is about, what it is.... is open to interpretation, of who sits on the court?

    there were 55 Founders who helped produce the US Constitution.

    The opinion of a very small number on any issue means precious little next to the actual language of the Constitution itself.
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    there were 55 Founders who helped produce the US Constitution.

    The opinion of a very small number on any issue means precious little next to the actual language of the Constitution itself.
    you gave this a like, so iam going to post it again for you ..

    "The legitimate meaning of the Instrument must be derived from the text itself; or if a key is to be sought elsewhere, it must be not in the opinions or intentions of the Body which planned & proposed the Constitution, but in the sense attached to it by the people in their respective State Conventions where it recd. all the authority which it possesses." - James Madison

    well here is the text, again for you....since you like text.


    The Preamble to The Bill of Rights

    Congress of the United States
    begun and held at the City of New-York, on
    Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

    THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its (*federal) powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

    * added by me

    and the text is very clear, when the bill of rights THE WHOLE DOCUMENT was ratified.

    that the clauses of the bill of rights are declaratory and restrictive clauses towards the powers of the federal government.

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    there were 55 Founders who helped produce the US Constitution.

    The opinion of a very small number on any issue means precious little next to the actual language of the Constitution itself.
    true, but only two have rendered the most thoughts on the constitution, and they thoughts /opinions carry more weight any one outside that 55.

  4. #184
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    and the text is very clear, when the bill of rights THE WHOLE DOCUMENT was ratified.

    that the clauses of the bill of rights are declaratory and restrictive clauses towards the powers of the federal government.
    There is not one shred of evidence that has been presented by you which says that anything other than the specific Amendments in the Bill of Rights were ratified by the states.

    And when you say THE WHOLE DOCUMENT was ratified you should be aware that is not even true as not all the proposed Amendments in the Bill of Rights were ratified.

    Bill of Rights is finally ratified — History.com This Day in History — 12/15/1791

    On December 15, 1791, Virginia became the 10th of 14 states to approve 10 of the 12 amendments, thus giving the Bill of Rights the two-thirds majority of state ratification necessary to make it legal. Of the two amendments not ratified, the first concerned the population system of representation, while the second prohibited laws varying the payment of congressional members from taking effect until an election intervened. The first of these two amendments was never ratified, while the second was finally ratified more than 200 years later, in 1992.
    So your statement that THE WHOLE DOCUMENT was ratified is factually and historically wrong.

    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...rightss12.html

    this article goes to great pains to identify each state and which part of THE WHOLE DOCUMENT that was submitted was ratified. Please take care to read it and not that there is not one mention of any ratification of any PREAMBLE to the Bill of Rights.

    Again, despite being repeatedly asked, you have presented not one piece of evidence that the Preamble was ever ratifiied. Thus the Preamble has the same legal status as a piece of toilet tissue............ without the obvious utilitatian use.

    Which, being transmitted to the several state legislatures, were decided upon by them, according to the following returns:--

    By the State of New Hampshire.--Agreed to the whole of the said amendments, except the 2d article.

    By the State of New York.--Agreed to the whole of the said amendments, except the 2d article.

    By the State of Pennsylvania.--Agreed to the 3d, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th articles of the said amendments.

    By the State of Delaware.--Agreed to the whole of the said amendments, except the 1st article.

    By the State of Maryland.--Agreed to the whole of the said twelve amendments.

    By the State of South Carolina.--Agreed to the whole said twelve amendments.

    By the State of North Carolina.--Agreed to the whole of the said twelve amendments.

    By the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations.--Agreed to the whole of the said twelve articles.

    By the State of New Jersey.--Agreed to the whole of the said amendments, except the second article.

    By the State of Virginia.--Agreed to the whole of the said twelve articles.

    No returns were made by the states of Massachusetts, Connecticut, Georgia, and Kentucky.

    The amendments thus proposed became a part of the Constitution, the first and second of them excepted, which were not ratified by a sufficient number of the state legislatures.
    Different AMENDMENTS were ratified. No Preamble was ratified as it is not an Amendment.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-05-13 at 07:36 AM.
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    true, but only two have rendered the most thoughts on the constitution, and they thoughts /opinions carry more weight any one outside that 55.
    Perhaps in a historical anecdote context you might say that but since only a very small number put their thoughts down on paper - we have no way of knowing what the others believed other than the exact language given to us in the Constitution itself. And that is why the exact language always always always trumps any individual opinion of any of the 55.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    The Constitution including the amendments called the bill of rights is subject to the approval and will of the people as outlined in the rules for how to change it. Should they wish to, then it can be legally changed. Rights are not absolute. They are granted by our society. They can and will change with the times.

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    so are you making the point that what the founders have to say about the constitution, and what is about, what it is.... is open to interpretation, of who sits on the court?
    No, I'm showing that the founders themselves said that their opinions were not supreme guidelines to how the constitution should be interpreted. The meaning behind the constitutio n is dependent on the people, not the we long ago zombie people.
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    There is not one shred of evidence that has been presented by you which says that anything other than the specific Amendments in the Bill of Rights were ratified by the states.

    And when you say THE WHOLE DOCUMENT was ratified you should be aware that is not even true as not all the proposed Amendments in the Bill of Rights were ratified.

    Bill of Rights is finally ratified — History.com This Day in History — 12/15/1791



    So your statement that THE WHOLE DOCUMENT was ratified is factually and historically wrong.

    Bill of Rights: Proposed Amendments and Ratification

    this article goes to great pains to identify each state and which part of THE WHOLE DOCUMENT that was submitted was ratified. Please take care to read it and not that there is not one mention of any ratification of any PREAMBLE to the Bill of Rights.

    Again, despite being repeatedly asked, you have presented not one piece of evidence that the Preamble was ever ratifiied. Thus the Preamble has the same legal status as a piece of toilet tissue............ without the obvious utilitatian use.



    Different AMENDMENTS were ratified. No Preamble was ratified as it is not an Amendment.
    i know you dont like the preamble, becuase it does not let you explain how government is able to get around the bill of rights, but its clear, the document in the achieves does have the preamble, which is the goal of the document itself, and it its meant to achieve, and that is to protect unalienable rights.

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i know you dont like the preamble, becuase it does not let you explain how government is able to get around the bill of rights, but its clear, the document in the achieves does have the preamble, which is the goal of the document itself, and it its meant to achieve, and that is to protect unalienable rights.
    So you have no verifiable information to claim the Preamble to the BoR is part of the Constitution? That doesn't surprise me because I doubt it is.
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i know you dont like the preamble, becuase it does not let you explain how government is able to get around the bill of rights, but its clear, the document in the achieves does have the preamble, which is the goal of the document itself, and it its meant to achieve, and that is to protect unalienable rights.
    What I like or do nor like is not the question. The question was did the states ratify the Preamble to the Bill of Rights. And the answer is NO they did not.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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