View Poll Results: Can the Bill of Rights be legally amended with other Amendments?

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  • YES - anything in the Constitution is subject to the Amendment process.

    43 84.31%
  • NO - you cannot amend anything which changes any provision in the Bill of Rights

    8 15.69%
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Thread: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

  1. #171
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    No one is disputing that the document as issued by Congress is in the National Archives. that bit of trivia is irrelevant to the greater and far more important question: when the states ratified the various amendments that comprise the Bill of Rights, did they also ratify the Preamble you cited?

    You say yes but can provide no evidence of such a thing? Why is that?

    I think we all know the answer and it is why you are avoiding facing reality so your assumption can be exposed as irrelevant to what the Constitution actually says.

    You got nothing. But please, prove me wrong and do it with verifiable evidence and not your own self serving analysis.
    well i got plenty, that you would even try to go in the direction,, that hey didnt include the preamble to the bill of rights, is as i said many times, ...silly.

  2. #172
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    well i got plenty, that you would even try to go in the direction,, that hey didnt include the preamble to the bill of rights, is as i said many times, ...silly.
    You have presented not a single iota of evidence that the states which ratified the bill of rights also did so with the Preamble you have cited.

    In view of giving you ample opportunity to do so and your refusal or outright impotence to do so, it is obvious that you have been lying about it and can prove nothing of the kind.

    Your precious preamble has all the legal force of a piece of toilet tissue.
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    Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    that is the point, that the federalist papers interpret the constitution, and they were written before the constitution was fully ratified, to educate the people on what the constitution means.

    so when Madison says the federal government is supposed to be limited...its supposed to be limited.
    The Federalist Papers do not interpret the Constitution, they represent the opinions of their authors and were - if you'll recall - primarily meant to sell the Constitution to the people if New York (at least initially).

    They and other contemporaneous documents can be helpful in interpreting the Constitution because in cases where there is ambiguity they may provide some enlightenment but they are not interpretations themselves.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Art. I, Sec. 9, clause 1: The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight.
    Art. I, Sec. 9, clause 4: No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.
    Don't see anything specific there either....
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  5. #175
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    The Federalist Papers do not interpret the Constitution, they represent the opinions of their authors and were - if you'll recall - primarily meant to sell the Constitution to the people if New York (at least initially).

    They and other contemporaneous documents can be helpful in interpreting the Constitution because in cases where there is ambiguity they may provide some enlightenment but they are not interpretations themselves.
    which is it?

  6. #176
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    which is it?
    Both. His statement is pretty clear. They are not interpretations in and of themselves, more like opinion pieces which should be taken into consideration when interpreting them. You can't really intepret something you created. Other people interpret your creations.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Both. His statement is pretty clear. They are not interpretations in and of themselves, more like opinion pieces which should be taken into consideration when interpreting them. You can't really intepret something you created. Other people interpret your creations.
    Article 1, Section 2, Clause 1

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 52, 354--59
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 53, 359--66

    Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 54, 366--72
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 55, 372--78
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 56, 378--83
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 57, 384--90
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 58, 391--97

    Article 1, Section 2, Clause 5
    Article 1, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7
    Article 2, Section 4
    Article 3, Section 1


    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 65, 439--45
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 66, 445--51

    Article 1, Section 3, Clauses 1 and 2

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 62, 415--22
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 63, 422--31

    Article 1, Section 4, Clause 1

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 59, 397--403
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 60, 403--10
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 61, 410--14

    Article 1, Section 7, Clauses 2 and 3

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 69, 463--64
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 73, 494--99

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 30, 187--93
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 31, 193--98
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 34, 209--15
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 35, 215--18

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 42, 283--85
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 42, 284--85

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 42, 285--87

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 42, 285

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 10

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 42, 280--81

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 12

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 23, 146--51
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 24, 152--57
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 25, 158--63
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 26, 164--71
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 28, 176--80

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 13

    John Jay, Federalist, no. 4, 19--23
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 11, 65--73

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 15

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 29, 181--87

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 16

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 29, 181--87

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 43, 288--90

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 18

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 44, 303--5
    Hamilton, Federalist, no. 33, 203--208
    Last edited by Master PO; 06-04-13 at 12:49 AM.

  8. #178
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Article 1, Section 2, Clause 1

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 52, 354--59
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 53, 359--66

    Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 54, 366--72
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 55, 372--78
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 56, 378--83
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 57, 384--90
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 58, 391--97

    Article 1, Section 2, Clause 5
    Article 1, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7
    Article 2, Section 4
    Article 3, Section 1


    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 65, 439--45
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 66, 445--51

    Article 1, Section 3, Clauses 1 and 2

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 62, 415--22
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 63, 422--31

    Article 1, Section 4, Clause 1

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 59, 397--403
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 60, 403--10
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 61, 410--14
    Article 1, Section 7, Clauses 2 and 3

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 69, 463--64
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 73, 494--99

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 30, 187--93
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 31, 193--98
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 34, 209--15
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 35, 215--18

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 42, 283--85
    James Madison, Federalist, no. 42, 284--85

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 42, 285--87

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 42, 285

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 10

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 42, 280--81

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 12

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 23, 146--51
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 24, 152--57
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 25, 158--63
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 26, 164--71
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 28, 176--80

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 13

    John Jay, Federalist, no. 4, 19--23
    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 11, 65--73

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 15

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 29, 181--87

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 16

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 29, 181--87

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 43, 288--90

    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 18

    James Madison, Federalist, no. 44, 303--5
    Hamilton, Federalist, no. 33, 203--208
    Good stuff, they're still nothing but the opinions of their authors on the matter. Not how they should be interpreted.

    "The legitimate meaning of the Instrument must be derived from the text itself; or if a key is to be sought elsewhere, it must be not in the opinions or intentions of the Body which planned & proposed the Constitution, but in the sense attached to it by the people in their respective State Conventions where it recd. all the authority which it possesses." - James Madison
    Last edited by Hatuey; 06-04-13 at 02:18 AM.
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  9. #179
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Not how they should be interpreted.
    so are you making the point that what the founders have to say about the constitution, and what is about, what it is.... is open to interpretation, of who sits on the court?

  10. #180
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    The Federalist Papers long have enjoyed a special reputation as an extremely important source of evidence of the original meaning of the Constitution. In 1821, in Cohens v. Virginia, Chief Justice John Marshall described the collection of essays in the following glowing terms:
    It is a complete commentary on our constitution; and is appealed to by all parties in the questions to which that instrument has given birth. Its intrinsic merit entitles it to this high rank, and the part two of its authors[i.e., Hamilton and Madison] performed in framing the constitution, put it
    very much in their power to explain the views with which it was framed.

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