View Poll Results: Can the Bill of Rights be legally amended with other Amendments?

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  • YES - anything in the Constitution is subject to the Amendment process.

    43 84.31%
  • NO - you cannot amend anything which changes any provision in the Bill of Rights

    8 15.69%
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Thread: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

  1. #141
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    Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    really?...so Madison writings are nothing?

    let us see now, the constitution framework was created by Madison.

    Madison took all the notes at the constitutional convention

    Madison spoke more than any man there.

    more of Madison proposals were accepted then anyone else.

    Madison wrote the bill or rights.

    Madison has written more pieces about the Constitution, even up until his death, and he lived the longest.

    ....so Madison really, does not have any real creditability when it comes to the constitution according to you.
    Ask yourself one simple question. We're Madison's notes and papers, were the Federalist papers part of the package of documents that were ratified? If not then they do not have the force of law it is that sample.

    All of that is useful in helping to interpret the Constitution but that is all.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  2. #142
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Ask yourself one simple question. We're Madison's notes and papers, were the Federalist papers part of the package of documents that were ratified? If not then they do not have the force of law it is that sample.

    All of that is useful in helping to interpret the Constitution but that is all.
    that is the point, that the federalist papers interpret the constitution, and they were written before the constitution was fully ratified, to educate the people on what the constitution means.

    so when Madison says the federal government is supposed to be limited...its supposed to be limited.

  3. #143
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We were talking about THE PREAMBLE TO THE BILL OF RIGHTS that you referenced and quoted. NOT the PREAMBLE TO THE ACTUAL US CONSTITUTION.

    Here is the question I repeatedly asked you



    Your reply was



    Again, the evidence you provided was not at all evidence that the Bill of Rights Preamble was ever ratified by the States.

    Do you have such evidence to present?

    when the bill or rights was ratified , the whole document was accepted, they did not cut off the top half of the document, the whole document is in the national archives.

    haymarket if you want to live denial go ahead,

    as to you not ratifying the preamble, well you can continue with your silliness, again as you do from time to time.

    and when you do .............i leave you to your own devices....shaking my head at the silliness of some statements. from you.

  4. #144
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the constitution is made up of clauses as is the bill of rights, however the bill or rights clauses are restrictive clauses only, the constitution itself are not.
    The amendments to the constitution are parts of the constitutions, by definition. You are still evading my question: where in the constitution does it limit the amendment process?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  5. #145
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The amendments to the constitution are parts of the constitutions, by definition. You are still evading my question: where in the constitution does it limit the amendment process?
    it does not for the constitution itself passed in 1788,........... it does for the bill of rights which are restrictive clauses..passed in 1791

    "Bill of Rights" Amendments Proposal and Discussion
    Articles In Addition to, and Amendment of,
    The Constitution of the United States Of America 140

    140 Of the twelve amendments proposed by Congress on September 25, 1789, the last ten amendments were Ratified pursuant to the Fifth Article of the Original Constitution by the legislatures of the several States on Dec 15, 1791, and became what is known today as "The Bill of Rights."

    During the first session of the first Congress under the new Constitution this self-explanatory resolution was passed: -- [ Click for JPG Image.]


    CONGRESS of the UNITED STATES
    Begun and held at the City of New York, on Wednesday, the Fourth
    of March, One Thousand Seven Hundred Eighty-nine.

    The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the Time of their Adopting the Constitution, expressed a Desire, in Order to prevent Misconstruction or Abuse of its Powers, that further declaratory and restrictive Clauses should be added: And as exceeding the Ground of public Confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent Ends of its Institution,

    RESOLVED, by the Senate, and House of Representatives, of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, Two Thirds of both Houses concurring, That the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as Amendments to the Constitution of the United States: All, or any of, which Articles, when ratified by Three-Fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of the said Constitution, viz.

    Articles in Addition to, and Amendment of, the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the Fifth Article of the original Constitution.


    The above PREAMBLE was then followed by twelve proposed amendments, the first two of which failed of adoption. The first related to membership in the House of Representatives by population, and the second was against the taking effect of laws varying the compensation of senators and representatives until an election should have intervened. This second proposed amendment was resurrected in 1985 and ratified, becoming Amendment Article XXVII after ratification on May 7, 1992. Six States had ratified this proposed amendment in the two year period from 1790 to 1791, and between 1985 and 1992 an additional 33 States ratified this amendment proposal that was nearly 200 years old.

    In ALL the presentations of the Bill of Rights today this most important part of the Bill Of Rights, setting forth the purpose of the Amendments, is left off. Without this Preamble we have no protection from those who would pass amendments, laws, or otherwise corrupt the Constitution.

    I have taken the liberty to emphasis in red text the area I am referring to. Please join with me to correct this misconstruction of the Bill Of Rights before it becomes an accepted presentation. It is ESSENTIAL that we read and present the Constitution in it's entirety.

    This MOST IMPORTANT PART of the Bill of Rights -- the PREAMBLE which tells SPECIFICALLY that the Bill of Rights was to make sure the government knew it was limited to the powers stated in the Constitution, and if it didn't, the Amendments spell out the Rights of the People the government couldn't change. Our revisionist historians ALWAYS leave this off the Constitution!!! It is imperative that the complete text be included in any study, interpretation or construction of the contents and the Limitations of government imposed by the Constitution for the United States.

    It has been stated that some scholars don't think this is important. This is a fallacy.

    It is IMPERATIVE for the following reason:

    The first ten amendments are "declaratory and restrictive clauses". This means they supersede and restrict all previous parts of the Constitution, and restrict all subsequent amendments to the framework of the Bill of Rights amendments. The Bill of Rights amendments are a declaration in very plain language of the restrictions to the powers of government and "STATE".

    There are people in this country that do not want us to know that this Preamble ever existed. For many years these words and understanding have been "omitted" from presentations of our Constitution.

    Public and private schools and colleges alike have based the education of the people and their whole interpretation of the Constitution on this fraudulent omission. (Indeed, when I was searching for it, I was informed by the Dean of the Law School at UC Berkley, that the Bill of Rights amendments had no Preamble.)140

    Corrupt judiciary and politicians have, through clever deception, erected interpretations and statutes that fly in the face, in direct contravention of the Bill of Rights amendments. The amendments and their declaratory and restrictive intent can be changed only by due process and the will of the people, as prescribed in the Fifth Article of the Original Constitution.

    The Bill of Rights amendments, being declaratory and restrictive, are separate from all the other amendments. The Bill of Rights amendments restrict the Constitution. The Constitution restricts the powers of government and "STATE".

  6. #146
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    it does not for the constitution itself passed in 1788,........... it does for the bill of rights which are restrictive clauses..passed in 1791

    "Bill of Rights" Amendments Proposal and Discussion
    Articles In Addition to, and Amendment of,
    The Constitution of the United States Of America 140

    140 Of the twelve amendments proposed by Congress on September 25, 1789, the last ten amendments were Ratified pursuant to the Fifth Article of the Original Constitution by the legislatures of the several States on Dec 15, 1791, and became what is known today as "The Bill of Rights."

    During the first session of the first Congress under the new Constitution this self-explanatory resolution was passed: -- [ Click for JPG Image.]


    CONGRESS of the UNITED STATES
    Begun and held at the City of New York, on Wednesday, the Fourth
    of March, One Thousand Seven Hundred Eighty-nine.

    The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the Time of their Adopting the Constitution, expressed a Desire, in Order to prevent Misconstruction or Abuse of its Powers, that further declaratory and restrictive Clauses should be added: And as exceeding the Ground of public Confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent Ends of its Institution,

    RESOLVED, by the Senate, and House of Representatives, of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, Two Thirds of both Houses concurring, That the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as Amendments to the Constitution of the United States: All, or any of, which Articles, when ratified by Three-Fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of the said Constitution, viz.

    Articles in Addition to, and Amendment of, the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the Fifth Article of the original Constitution.


    The above PREAMBLE was then followed by twelve proposed amendments, the first two of which failed of adoption. The first related to membership in the House of Representatives by population, and the second was against the taking effect of laws varying the compensation of senators and representatives until an election should have intervened. This second proposed amendment was resurrected in 1985 and ratified, becoming Amendment Article XXVII after ratification on May 7, 1992. Six States had ratified this proposed amendment in the two year period from 1790 to 1791, and between 1985 and 1992 an additional 33 States ratified this amendment proposal that was nearly 200 years old.

    In ALL the presentations of the Bill of Rights today this most important part of the Bill Of Rights, setting forth the purpose of the Amendments, is left off. Without this Preamble we have no protection from those who would pass amendments, laws, or otherwise corrupt the Constitution.

    I have taken the liberty to emphasis in red text the area I am referring to. Please join with me to correct this misconstruction of the Bill Of Rights before it becomes an accepted presentation. It is ESSENTIAL that we read and present the Constitution in it's entirety.

    This MOST IMPORTANT PART of the Bill of Rights -- the PREAMBLE which tells SPECIFICALLY that the Bill of Rights was to make sure the government knew it was limited to the powers stated in the Constitution, and if it didn't, the Amendments spell out the Rights of the People the government couldn't change. Our revisionist historians ALWAYS leave this off the Constitution!!! It is imperative that the complete text be included in any study, interpretation or construction of the contents and the Limitations of government imposed by the Constitution for the United States.

    It has been stated that some scholars don't think this is important. This is a fallacy.

    It is IMPERATIVE for the following reason:

    The first ten amendments are "declaratory and restrictive clauses". This means they supersede and restrict all previous parts of the Constitution, and restrict all subsequent amendments to the framework of the Bill of Rights amendments. The Bill of Rights amendments are a declaration in very plain language of the restrictions to the powers of government and "STATE".

    There are people in this country that do not want us to know that this Preamble ever existed. For many years these words and understanding have been "omitted" from presentations of our Constitution.

    Public and private schools and colleges alike have based the education of the people and their whole interpretation of the Constitution on this fraudulent omission. (Indeed, when I was searching for it, I was informed by the Dean of the Law School at UC Berkley, that the Bill of Rights amendments had no Preamble.)140

    Corrupt judiciary and politicians have, through clever deception, erected interpretations and statutes that fly in the face, in direct contravention of the Bill of Rights amendments. The amendments and their declaratory and restrictive intent can be changed only by due process and the will of the people, as prescribed in the Fifth Article of the Original Constitution.

    The Bill of Rights amendments, being declaratory and restrictive, are separate from all the other amendments. The Bill of Rights amendments restrict the Constitution. The Constitution restricts the powers of government and "STATE".
    The constitution is changed every so often. So saying it passed in 1788 is incomplete.

    So what you have is your interpretation of the constitution based on what you want to be true, but not on the constitution itself. How very libertarian of you...
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  7. #147
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The constitution is changed every so often. So saying it passed in 1788 is incomplete.

    So what you have is your interpretation of the constitution based on what you want to be true, but not on the constitution itself. How very libertarian of you...
    passed as in ratified in 1788, the bill of rights was created in 1789 and ratified in 1791.

    dont want to live with truth, ok....to each his own.

  8. #148
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    The Preamble to The Bill of Rights

    Congress of the United States
    begun and held at the City of New-York, on
    Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

    THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.


    who are the clauses which makeup the bill of rights, established 2 years after the constitution declaratory and restrictive too?...the federal government!

    also read the American founding fathers who state....they cannot be amended or repealed.

    "[You have Rights] antecedent to all earthly governments:Rights, that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws;Rights, derived from the Great Legislator of the universe."

    by:John Adams


    Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man.

    by : Thomas Jefferson

  9. #149
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    passed as in ratified in 1788, the bill of rights was created in 1789 and ratified in 1791.

    dont want to live with truth, ok....to each his own.
    Your truths are irrelevant. Until you can present language or supreme court rulings saying otherwise, there is no limit to can potentially be the topic of an amendment. Your nutty interpretation does not so limit amendments.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  10. #150
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Your truths are irrelevant. Until you can present language or supreme court rulings saying otherwise, there is no limit to can potentially be the topic of an amendment. Your nutty interpretation does not so limit amendments.
    i go by what the founders say ,not the USSC

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