View Poll Results: Can the Bill of Rights be legally amended with other Amendments?

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  • YES - anything in the Constitution is subject to the Amendment process.

    43 84.31%
  • NO - you cannot amend anything which changes any provision in the Bill of Rights

    8 15.69%
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Thread: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

  1. #131
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the constitution is made up of clauses as is the bill of rights, however the bill or rights clauses are restrictive clauses only, the constitution itself are not.
    EB - hope your doctor appointment went well.

    Could you please now answer my question?

    When the Bill of Rights was submitted to the states for ratification, did they also ratify the language of the Preamble that you cited?
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    EB - hope your doctor appointment went well.

    Could you please now answer my question?

    When the Bill of Rights was submitted to the states for ratification, did they also ratify the language of the Preamble that you cited?

    yes... becuase it is part of the bill of rights, just as the did the preamble of the constitution, there is no separation in the document.

    the whole document was read and concerned for it ratification.

  3. #133
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    Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    again..... who are the bill of rights clauses restrictive to?
    That's not relevant. I'm commenting on the idea that somehow the founders private writings matter more than the Constitution. They do not. The Constitution is a legal document. The Federalist Papers are not. Nor are Madison's writings.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  4. #134
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    yes... becuase it is part of the bill of rights, just as the did the preamble of the constitution, there is no separation in the document.

    the whole document was read and concerned for it ratification.
    Please provide the verifiable evidence that the Preamble to the Bill of Rights was also ratified by the necessary number of states. I searched and searched and searched and cannot locate a single piece of evidence that says it was.

    Since you claim that it was ratified , please provide the verifiable evidence that it was.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #135
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    That's not relevant. I'm commenting on the idea that somehow the founders private writings matter more than the Constitution. They do not. The Constitution is a legal document. The Federalist Papers are not. Nor are Madison's writings.
    You are 100% right about that. You are also pushing a ten ton boulder up a hill and will pass me as you go by when you think you can convince some people here that the Federalist Papers are not on a par with the official constitution. But good luck to you and I hope you are more successful than I was in that attempt.
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    That's not relevant. I'm commenting on the idea that somehow the founders private writings matter more than the Constitution. They do not. The Constitution is a legal document. The Federalist Papers are not. Nor are Madison's writings.
    really?...so Madison writings are nothing?

    let us see now, the constitution framework was created by Madison.

    Madison took all the notes at the constitutional convention

    Madison spoke more than any man there.

    more of Madison proposals were accepted then anyone else.

    Madison wrote the bill or rights.

    Madison has written more pieces about the Constitution, even up until his death, and he lived the longest.

    ....so Madison really, does not have any real creditability when it comes to the constitution according to you.

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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Please provide the verifiable evidence that the Preamble to the Bill of Rights was also ratified by the necessary number of states. I searched and searched and searched and cannot locate a single piece of evidence that says it was.

    Since you claim that it was ratified , please provide the verifiable evidence that it was.

    The Bill of Rights: A Transcription

    The Preamble to The Bill of Rights

    Congress of the United States
    begun and held at the City of New-York, on
    Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

    THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

    RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all, or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.

    ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.


    The dates of the state ratifications were as follows:

    1. New Jersey November 20, 1789
    2. Maryland December 19, 1789
    3. North Carolina December 22, 1789
    4. South Carolina January 19, 1790
    5. New Hampshire January 25, 1790
    6. Delaware January 28, 1790
    7. New York February 27, 1790
    8. Pennsylvania March 10, 1790
    9. Rhode Island June 11, 1790
    10. Vermont November 3, 1791
    11. Virginia December 15, 1791 ("Bill of Rights day")
    12. Massachusetts March 2, 1939
    13. Georgia March 24, 1939
    14. Connecticut April 19, 1939

  8. #138
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    The Bill of Rights: A Transcription

    The Preamble to The Bill of Rights

    Congress of the United States
    begun and held at the City of New-York, on
    Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

    THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

    RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all, or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.

    ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.


    The dates of the state ratifications were as follows:

    1. New Jersey November 20, 1789
    2. Maryland December 19, 1789
    3. North Carolina December 22, 1789
    4. South Carolina January 19, 1790
    5. New Hampshire January 25, 1790
    6. Delaware January 28, 1790
    7. New York February 27, 1790
    8. Pennsylvania March 10, 1790
    9. Rhode Island June 11, 1790
    10. Vermont November 3, 1791
    11. Virginia December 15, 1791 ("Bill of Rights day")
    12. Massachusetts March 2, 1939
    13. Georgia March 24, 1939
    14. Connecticut April 19, 1939
    None of that says the Preamble was ratified and made part of the Constitution. It appears that you are presenting two different things but pretending that they are one thing. Could you please provide a link so that I can see this myself?
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #139
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    None of that says the Preamble was ratified and made part of the Constitution. .
    so are you going to tell me the preamble of the constitution, was not look at when the constitution was ratified.

    so were going to tell me they only ratified part of the founding documents....

    haymarket, your really going out on a limb!

  10. #140
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    Re: Can you legally Amend the Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    so are you going to tell me the preamble of the constitution, was not look at when the constitution was ratified.

    so were going to tell me they only ratified part of the founding documents....

    haymarket, your really going out on a limb!
    We were talking about THE PREAMBLE TO THE BILL OF RIGHTS that you referenced and quoted. NOT the PREAMBLE TO THE ACTUAL US CONSTITUTION.

    Here is the question I repeatedly asked you

    Please provide the verifiable evidence that the Preamble to the Bill of Rights was also ratified by the necessary number of states. I searched and searched and searched and cannot locate a single piece of evidence that says it was.
    Your reply was

    yes... becuase it is part of the bill of rights, just as the did the preamble of the constitution, there is no separation in the document.

    the whole document was read and concerned for it ratification.
    Again, the evidence you provided was not at all evidence that the Bill of Rights Preamble was ever ratified by the States.

    Do you have such evidence to present?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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