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Death penalty for voter fraud

Do you support the death penalty for voter fraud?

  • I'm a Democrat and approve the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I'm a Republican and approve the death penalty for committing voter fraud

    Votes: 1 1.3%

  • I'm neither a Democrat nor Republican and approve the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    Votes: 4 5.3%

  • I'm a Democrat and disapprove the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    Votes: 13 17.3%

  • I'm a Republican and disapprove of the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    Votes: 10 13.3%

  • I'm neither a Democrat nor Republican and disapprove the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    Votes: 47 62.7%
  • Total voters
    75
Putting someone in jail at the cost to the public of a couple hundred thousand per year to maintain each inmate, seems retarded to me.
 
yobarnacle said:
We have numerous problems that make elections fraudulent. Gerrymandering is INDEED one.
People voting in multiple states during the same election is another.
people voting as deceased citizens, people mailing in multiple ballots, people rigging vote machines, people ignoring votes, or deliberately LOSING votes, all are significant.

We NEED to fix the system.

The democrats yell fraud the loudest when THEY lose.

Let's fix the system for a fair vote for ALL of us.

Remember success is in the details.
the old example, For lack of a horseshoe nail, this small detail extrapolated into loss of the war.

Voter IDs is a good start.
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You've listed and made claims of a number of ways individual voters are fraudulently affecting election outcomes without providing any sources. I haven't seen any proof of individuals making the impact on elections in the ways you describe.
 
Removable Mind said:
You've listed and made claims of a number of ways individual voters are fraudulently affecting election outcomes without providing any sources. I haven't seen any proof of individuals making the impact on elections in the ways you describe.
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Well, if every vote counts, then every illegitimate vote counts too.
 
yobarnacle said:
I admitted no such thing.

And your debate tactics wouldn't be accepted on even a high school debate team.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but NOT your own FACTS! :D
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You were repeatedly asked for evidence that there is a voter election fraud problem which warrants governmental action. You are impotent to provide any and make it a point to not provide any. The obvious conclusion is there and it is that you have no verifiable evidence to present despite being afforded multiple opportunities to state your case.
 
This thread has turned into the usual partisan finger pointing:

We should do something because of X.
No we shouldn't, you can't show me verifiable evidence of X.
Here is some evidence of X.
Option 1: That isn't really evidence.
Option 2: That is a partisan source, nobody pays attention to them.
Option 3: That's only 1 case, not evidence of a widespread issue.
Option 4: crickets.

For those seeking such evidence, define the criteria that would be accepted as evidence. What quantity is necessary for voter fraud to be considered an issue to be considered and what definition of voter fraud is being used?
 
Cyrylek said:
Every rational, compassionate human being would agree that voter fraud ought to be punished by castration and/or winter vacations in Belarus.
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What if a woman does it?
 
ChrisL said:
Wasn't there some voter registration fraud going on with ACORN?
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I don't know about other places, but the ACORN issues we had here were concerned with bad voter registration forms, not illegal voting. Our Board of Elections caught the problem and brought it to light in their standard duties of checking and putting people who file voter registration forms on the roster. If the Board of Elections is doing their job correctly, and apparently they are, then none of those illegal registrations ever make it to the roster.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
For those seeking such evidence, define the criteria that would be accepted as evidence. What quantity is necessary for voter fraud to be considered an issue to be considered and what definition of voter fraud is being used?
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Good questions.

1 - Let us see what the level of the problem is through an objective and verifiable measurement of the actual problem of voter fraud. The only way I know of to identify it having occurred is through convictions for voter fraud.

2 - Take the number of voter fraud convinctions and compare it to the total votes cast during that same measurable time period. Do the math.

3 - I would say that if we see a level of voter fraud at the level of even one half of one percent - a very small and tiny number - I would agree that it is a problem that we should look at.
I came up with one-half of one percent since that seems to match the level of Libertarian Party support for their candidate for President of the USA over the last few election cycles. ;):2razz:
 
Well that reduced a lot of wasted time. I found one estimate that had 126,000,000 people voting in the last election. .5% of that number is 630,000, so that means for there to be a significant amount of voter fraud in order to do anything there has to be at least 630,000 convictions. Of course, we don't know what criteria is used to define criteria. I saw another site that said that 2.8 million people were registered in two different states. That certainly doesn't mean they did anything illegal, but then we all should be sure that there weren't a significant number.

It saves so much time to not worry about details when you can't even agree about the criteria for evaluating the details.

For the record, if the whole country were given Vulcan mind melds to determine that no one had committed voter fraud, I would still want an ID to be able to vote in the same way I want everyone to have an ID in order to fly.

If they scrapped all the requirements to vote (age, citizenship, etc.) and anyone who showed up could vote, I would still want a mechanism to ensure that a person only voted once. Someone would still complain that it was discriminatory against those who don't have fingers to put ink on.

Death penalty? Again, no.
 
haymarket said:
So that we can properly gauge this situation, can you tell us the number of actual election fraud convictions in the last election cycle?
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The OP is not making any claims about any situation.
 
Federalist said:
The OP is not making any claims about any situation.
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Obviously if one suggests a severe sanction like the death penalty for a specific crime there is the implicit suggestion that this is a serious problem and demands strong action.

Otherwise, why suggest such a harsh legal penalty if there is no problem?
 
haymarket said:
Obviously if one suggests a severe sanction like the death penalty for a specific crime there is the implicit suggestion that this is a serious problem and demands strong action.
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Is your assertion that there is an implicit suggestion based upon your own personal beliefs, or do you have verifiable evidence that such a suggestion implies a serious problem?
 
MoSurveyor said:
I don't know about other places, but the ACORN issues we had here were concerned with bad voter registration forms, not illegal voting. Our Board of Elections caught the problem and brought it to light in their standard duties of checking and putting people who file voter registration forms on the roster. If the Board of Elections is doing their job correctly, and apparently they are, then none of those illegal registrations ever make it to the roster.
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How did they catch the problem?
 
Federalist said:
Is your assertion that there is an implicit suggestion based upon your own personal beliefs, or do you have verifiable evidence that such a suggestion implies a serious problem?
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Well, if somebody says that a non-capital crime should be treated with the ultimate penalty of death, I would think that you would have to be the freakin village idiot NOT to conclude that the person believes that there is a serious problem there that needs that type of drastic action. So the next logical question is , what evidence do you have that there is this serious problem in the first place?
 
haymarket said:
Well, if somebody says that a non-capital crime should be treated with the ultimate penalty of death
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He didn't say it should be. He asked whether people thought it should be.

, I would think that you would have to be the freakin village idiot NOT to conclude that the person believes that there is a serious problem there that needs that type of drastic action.
Click to expand...

And, as I said before, he made no statement as to the prevalence of the problem, so your question about actual convictions is irrelevant to his question.

So the next logical question is , what evidence do you have that there is this serious problem in the first place?
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Neither I nor the OP are making any assertions about the prevalence of voter fraud. Therefore your question about prevalence is irrelevant.

The OP is asking a question about the punishment for a crime. He did not make any assertions about the prevalence of that crime.
 
Muhammed said:
So would you support capital punishment for people who commit voter fraud?

Please explain why or why not.
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At a glance, my 1st reaction was "don't be ridiculous".

Then, I stopped to think a bit.


All law and government are force, and threat of force. This is a fundamental truth. All legislation is force, because ultimately that is what it is backed by, from capital crimes to traffic tickets force is the means used to make refuseniks comply... and we haven't even mentioned war yet.


Therefore, voting is force. Yes, it is... it is choosing who will make these decisions on your behalf; chosing who will decide when we as a society collectively apply force and violence.

Even regulatory decisions can come down to life for death.... like how many parts-per-billion contaminants we allow in drinking water will determine how many sensitive/allergic people may sicken or die from same.

So in a sense, voter fraud is an unlawful misapplication of governmental force, or at least an attempt to subvert the accepted legal process for determining when where and how we will apply force... which determines who will die and who will live, btw.



In that sense, it is almost comparable to murder.... at least, in a theoretical fashion.


But theory and reality are not the same... I'd find it hard to support death for voter fraud unless we're talking about orchestrated mass fraud causing an important election to go awry.
 
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Federalist said:
And, as I said before, he made no statement as to the prevalence of the problem
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If there is no problem why would you propose such a drastic solution?
 
Muhammed said:
So would you support capital punishment for people who commit voter fraud?

Please explain why or why not.
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No more than applying the death penalty for ridiculous internet posts.
 
Let's raise the bar. How about giving the death penalty for people who throw chewing gum in the mall parking lot?
 
Goshin said:
I'd find it hard to support death for voter fraud unless we're talking about orchestrated mass fraud causing an important election to go awry.
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What is the purpose of voter fraud, if not to cause elections to go awry and to give power to people who didn't deserve it even by the heinously low ethical standards of democracy?

I maintain my stance: Voter fraud can end up leading to genocides, famines, and wars. As such, there are most certainly cases where it would be ethically justifiable to shoot someone in the head for engaging in it.
 
ChrisL said:
How did they catch the problem?
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The Board of Elections looks up residency, driver's license, SSN's, date of birth etc. They essentially verify everything that would be verified getting a State ID card or driver's license except they don't require a birth certificate.
 
MoSurveyor said:
By looking up residency, driver's license, SSN's, date of birth etc. They essentially verify everything that would be verified getting a State ID card or driver's license.
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Well what made them do that? You can't tell me they do that with every voter. Do they?
 
ChrisL said:
Well what made them do that? You can't tell me they do that with every voter. Do they?
Click to expand...
They do it with every new voter, yes. You have to go through that process to be put on the voter roster.
 
MoSurveyor said:
They do it with every new voter, yes.
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What about cases of identity theft? Some claim it's a pretty big problem, when people use dead people's names to get driver's licenses, credit cards, perhaps even to vote?
 
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