View Poll Results: Do you support the death penalty for voter fraud?

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  • I'm a Democrat and approve the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    0 0%
  • I'm a Republican and approve the death penalty for committing voter fraud

    3 3.09%
  • I'm neither a Democrat nor Republican and approve the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    6 6.19%
  • I'm a Democrat and disapprove the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    18 18.56%
  • I'm a Republican and disapprove of the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    12 12.37%
  • I'm neither a Democrat nor Republican and disapprove the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    58 59.79%
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Thread: Death penalty for voter fraud

  1. #211
    Educator HumanBeing's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Not quite. Treachery sounds less pompous than treason. And treachery can mean all varied kinds of betrayal of trust... treason is directly aimed towards betraying the trust of the people (the people are sovereign in a democracy).

    I am not here to convince you. Debating is about the exchange of opinions and ideas. I said my piece.
    Debating is about exchange of opinions and ideas, but definitions of words aren't. Look up treachery and tell me what you find. Yes, treason is aimed at betraying the trust of the people, so is voter fraud. That was the whole point.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05
    Again, Christians believe in both the Old and the new testament but to be a Christian you need to follow the teachings of Jesus in the New testament, not the teachings of the old testament. The Old testament is like a prologue in a novel that sets the background so you know in what universe the story is taking part. The New Testament is the entirety of the story, contents and ending. You don't love a book because the prologue is interesting, you love it because the main story with the characters in it is involving and interesting and presents itself properly.
    Again according to Christianity, the old testament is the word of God, and the new testament is the word of Jesus. Jesus was very explicit about getting people to follow the old testament. There is simply no getting around it, Christians believe in both the old and the new testament.

    Edit, just to add a few quotes to back up my assertion (and note that when the new testament refers to "the law" it means the laws set out in the old testament):

    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

    - "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

    - Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

    - "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

    - "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

    - Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

    - Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

    - Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

    - Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

    - “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

    - “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35
    Last edited by HumanBeing; 06-08-13 at 05:20 AM.
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  2. #212
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post


    Again according to Christianity, the old testament is the word of God, and the new testament is the word of Jesus. Jesus was very explicit about getting people to follow the old testament. There is simply no getting around it, Christians believe in both the old and the new testament.

    Edit, just to add a few quotes to back up my assertion (and note that when the new testament refers to "the law" it means the laws set out in the old testament):

    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

    - "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

    - Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

    - "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

    - "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

    - Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

    - Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

    - Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

    - Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

    - “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

    - “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35
    That's the whole point. I don't understand what you don't understand? I'm not saying that the Old testament is null and void of any meaning. I am simply saying that the new Testament is the one that makes you a Christian. And the New testament doesn't contradict the Old Testament in all places.

    But the old testament without the new testament makes you a jew, not a Christian. In order to be a Christian, you need to adopt the new Testament too and do according to the teachings of Jesus in the New testament.
    It all seems perfectly clear to me. I don't get whats rubbing you or how do you think that putting some quotes from the Bible you somehow counter my arguments. It doesn't.

    Again, Christians believe in both the Old and the new testament but to be a Christian you need to follow the teachings of Jesus in the New testament, not the teachings of the old testament.
    -> and in many places, they are one and the same. Like not to do adultery or don't murder people.

    FYI: some of your comments are dishonest in regards to the quotes:
    Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
    He doesn't say that they should kill their children, but that children who disobey their parents will die. Like: Don't go near the lake, they are crocodiles there; you disobey, you die.

    I can go on with other examples of your dishonesty in representing the quotes.

  3. #213
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    That's the whole point. I don't understand what you don't understand? I'm not saying that the Old testament is null and void of any meaning. I am simply saying that the new Testament is the one that makes you a Christian. And the New testament doesn't contradict the Old Testament in all places.

    But the old testament without the new testament makes you a jew, not a Christian. In order to be a Christian, you need to adopt the new Testament too and do according to the teachings of Jesus in the New testament.
    It all seems perfectly clear to me. I don't get whats rubbing you or how do you think that putting some quotes from the Bible you somehow counter my arguments. It doesn't.
    Your point was that the death sentence is unchristian. Given that the death sentence (as well as ethnic cleansing in general) are actively prescribed by "the laws" of the old testament, and the new testament specifically claims to be there to uphold those laws, there is nothing "unchristian" about the death penalty. Quite the opposite.

    What "rubs me the wrong way" is when people make provably false claims, like the idea that the bible doesn't support the death penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman05
    -> and in many places, they are one and the same. Like not to do adultery or don't murder people.
    Except the old testament prescribes murder for adulterers and even rape victims, so they really aren't the same at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman05
    FYI: some of your comments are dishonest in regards to the quotes:
    He doesn't say that they should kill their children, but that children who disobey their parents will die. Like: Don't go near the lake, they are crocodiles there; you disobey, you die.

    I can go on with other examples of your dishonesty in representing the quotes.
    I think that is the only one of the comments that may be open to interpretation. The others are pretty black and white, the old testament even more so.
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  4. #214
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    Your point was that the death sentence is unchristian. Given that the death sentence (as well as ethnic cleansing in general) are actively prescribed by "the laws" of the old testament, and the new testament specifically claims to be there to uphold those laws, there is nothing "unchristian" about the death penalty. Quite the opposite.

    What "rubs me the wrong way" is when people make provably false claims, like the idea that the bible doesn't support the death penalty.


    Except the old testament prescribes murder for adulterers and even rape victims, so they really aren't the same at all.



    I think that is the only one of the comments that may be open to interpretation. The others are pretty black and white, the old testament even more so.
    Right. This is where you have an issue. When you say that the old testament prescribes murder for adulterers and rape victims, then you have a law: Thou shall not kill ~God, to Moses. And then you have Jesus claiming to forgive those that wronged you.

    Now the fact that said law was butchered in reality (even by Moses himself who was a mass murderer), is of no consequence. It's there... and it is the word of God, strengthened by Jesus.

    It's a mixed bag of orders and encouragements I find. On one hand you have some passages claiming one, then others claiming another. It's really not a scientific book that gives precise and uncontradictory messages.

    The death penalty is unchristian because you are not permitted to kill and because Jesus forbade it. He defended a woman who was being stoned to death and said: thou who is innocent cast the first stone. He protected women and their rights, including, if they were whores or adulterers. And then you have other passages encouraging various forms of punishment, including death.

    Again, mixed bag. And one must look to the Bible as a mixed bag.

    So lets google it and let google decide if its unchristian or christian. Lets consider the 3 main religions, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. Since all the others are just a bunch of cults and certainly the evangelicals are a bunch of loonies who don't count as Christians.

    Religion and capital punishment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Though there has never been a formal declaration from the Orthodox Churches on the use of the punishment, many individual bishops have made statements, condemning the practice as unchristian.[citation needed] This can be seen in Russia which abolished capital punishment after the conversion in the tenth century, declaring it to be inconsistent with Christian mercy (though it was reinstated by later regimes).
    Orthodoxy -> death penalty is unchristian.

    Anglican and Episcopalian [edit]
    The Lambeth Conference of Anglican and Episcopalian bishops condemned the death penalty in 1988:
    This Conference: ... 3. Urges the Church to speak out against: ... (b) all governments who practice capital punishment, and encourages them to find alternative ways of sentencing offenders so that the divine dignity of every human being is respected and yet justice is pursued;....[14]
    Before that date, Anglican Bishops in the House of Lords had tended to vote in favour of the retention of capital punishment
    Protestant -> death penalty is unchristian.

    But with Catholics, its a mixed bag...

    While all Catholics must therefore hold that "the infliction of capital punishment is not contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church, and the power of the State to visit upon culprits the penalty of death derives much authority from revelation and from the writings of theologians", the matter of "the advisability of exercising that power is, of course, an affair to be determined upon other and various considerations."[10]
    Some Catholic writers, such as the late Cardinal Joseph Bernadin of Chicago, have argued against the use of the death penalty in modern times by drawing on a stance labelled the "consistent life ethic". Characteristic of this approach is an emphasis on the sanctity of human life, and the responsibility on both a personal and social level to protect and preserve life from "womb to tomb" (conception to natural death). This position draws on the conviction that God has "boundless love for every person, regardless of human merit or worthiness."[11] Other Catholic writers, such as Joseph Sobran and Matt Abbott, have criticised this approach, contending that it minimizes the issue of abortion by placing it on the same level as the death penalty the latter of which the Church does not consider intrinsically immora
    So you have Orthodoxy and Protestant in the "No death penalty" corner and Catholicism in the "undecided, but maybe... or maybe not" corner. Passed with majority consent, the death penalty is unchristian.

    Bam.

  5. #215
    Educator HumanBeing's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Now the fact that said law was butchered in reality (even by Moses himself who was a mass murderer), is of no consequence. It's there... and it is the word of God, strengthened by Jesus.

    It's a mixed bag of orders and encouragements I find. On one hand you have some passages claiming one, then others claiming another.
    No, the issue is that it contradicts itself. Like you said, some passages claiming one thing (like "I'm not here to change the laws of the old testament") and other passages that directly contradict it (like saving adulterers from stoning, despite it being in line with old testament law).

    In either case, Jesus was very explicit that people should follow the rules from the old testament and that he wasn't there to replace them. Those laws included the death penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05
    Bam
    Bam what? Did you bump into something?
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  6. #216
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Yes, I understand that this is what you think.

    However, the fact of the matter is that the OP wrote nothing about the frequency of voter fraud.
    So the OP throws out the idea of giving the ultimate punishment to a non capital crime with no evidence that it occurs in anything but relatively minor frequency and is no threat to the nation.

    Got it.

    It would be difficult to say what is more intellectually bankrupt - doing that or failing to quantify that a problem really exists.
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So the OP throws out the idea of giving the ultimate punishment to a non capital crime with no evidence that it occurs in anything but relatively minor frequency and is no threat to the nation.

    Got it.
    Yes, I think you've finally got it. He asks people whether they support the death penalty for voter fraud, while writing nothing about the frequency of voter fraud.

  8. #218
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Well, it does look like a few in DP would support that. So I guess Draconian Law would be great from some people. I'm not one of those people.
    People have a right to their opinion. I would suggest that the people who claim they want the death penalty for voter fraud are merely furthering a right wing meme hoping to score some points on these boards with each other in a sad attempt to show who is the truest of the far right True Believers.
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Yes, I think you've finally got it. He asks people whether they support the death penalty for voter fraud, while writing nothing about the frequency of voter fraud.
    So it is merely ridiculous and inane instead of being woefully poorly written, and poorly supported with any evidence in your opinion?
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So it is merely ridiculous and inane instead of being woefully poorly written, and poorly supported with any evidence in your opinion?
    In my opinion? No, I believe that's your opinion.

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