View Poll Results: Do you support the death penalty for voter fraud?

Voters
97. You may not vote on this poll
  • I'm a Democrat and approve the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    0 0%
  • I'm a Republican and approve the death penalty for committing voter fraud

    3 3.09%
  • I'm neither a Democrat nor Republican and approve the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    6 6.19%
  • I'm a Democrat and disapprove the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    18 18.56%
  • I'm a Republican and disapprove of the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    12 12.37%
  • I'm neither a Democrat nor Republican and disapprove the death penalty for committing voter fraud.

    58 59.79%
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Thread: Death penalty for voter fraud

  1. #181
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    No. The OP made no claims regarding how often voter fraud occurs.
    Bravo! You finally see its fundamental problem.
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  2. #182
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Overthrowing it with treason implies:
    -betrayal of the traitors' oaths. Also, you betray the trust of the people who put you in office (the country)
    -violence -> you opened the gates and the barbarians sacked the city
    -loss of independence through force. the people are no longer represented at all because the ruling government is a different one (say, beijing)
    -etc.

    Changing the government through votes means that unless all the votes that overthrew the government were forged, which doesn't happen, a popular opinion is still represented.
    So if you had a referendum, and the outcome was 51 to 49, even if 2/51 was forged, you still had a pretty large group of people who wanted to vote one way or the other. And it doesn't imply violence. And unless the forgery was done by the government itself, there is no betrayal of trust, no betrayal of oath and public duty.

    So yeah. There is a big difference. Sure, the outcome is the same, but the means and the implications vary greatly.
    I don't get it. Your first point on betrayal is the whole point of voter fraud, to bypass having people put you in office legitimately. If the purpose of voter fraud isn't to rig the outcome of an election, then what is the purpose of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05
    Overall, the death sentence is a barbaric method. It is also unchristian if you happen to be a devout Christian, you shouldn't support it for any crime except treason. Because treason supercedes religion. It goes against nature. Evolution itself despises treason and that's why you don't see treason in the animal kingdom. So a traitor can no longer be considered human. Just a monster.
    1. Death sentence is very Christian. Did you skip the old testament and go straight for the new? Go check out Deuteronomy, then come back and tell us all how unchristian it is to kill people.
    2. You absolutely see treason in the animal kingdom. Don't you ever watch Nat Geo? Monkeys stage organised coups against each other, and lets not even get started on wolves, lions etc. They don't come to be the Alpha Male through democratic elections.
    If you hate capitalism so much, then just write everything in lower case. Problem solved.

  3. #183
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    You're right. If there's one murder per year, we shouldn't even discuss how it should be punished, let alone actually punish it. We should wait until millions of people are murdering each other before we discuss appropriate punishment.[/sarcasm]
    You just committed the fallacy of FALSE EQUIVALENCY. Or in your mind is a single act of voter fraud equally as heinous as the murder of an innocent person?
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  4. #184
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You just committed the fallacy of FALSE EQUIVALENCY. Or in your mind is a single act of voter fraud equally as heinous as the murder of an innocent person?
    No, it isn't, that's why it deserves it's own laws, and warrants it's own topic of conversation. It isn't a false equivalency, it's a simple comparison to show the complete and utter irrelevance of your ongoing question of the general scale of voter fraud. You're saying that discussion of criminal punishment is only warranted if the crime is already being committed on a mass scale, yet when you apply the same logic to any other crime, like murder, you quickly see how illogical it is.
    If you hate capitalism so much, then just write everything in lower case. Problem solved.

  5. #185
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Overthrowing it with treason implies:
    -betrayal of the traitors' oaths. Also, you betray the trust of the people who put you in office (the country)
    -violence -> you opened the gates and the barbarians sacked the city
    -loss of independence through force. the people are no longer represented at all because the ruling government is a different one (say, beijing)
    -etc.

    Changing the government through votes means that unless all the votes that overthrew the government were forged, which doesn't happen, a popular opinion is still represented.
    So if you had a referendum, and the outcome was 51 to 49, even if 2/51 was forged, you still had a pretty large group of people who wanted to vote one way or the other. And it doesn't imply violence. And unless the forgery was done by the government itself, there is no betrayal of trust, no betrayal of oath and public duty.

    So yeah. There is a big difference. Sure, the outcome is the same, but the means and the implications vary greatly.

    Overall, the death sentence is a barbaric method. It is also unchristian if you happen to be a devout Christian, you shouldn't support it for any crime except treason. Because treason supercedes religion. It goes against nature. Evolution itself despises treason and that's why you don't see treason in the animal kingdom. So a traitor can no longer be considered human. Just a monster.
    All official actions of government aside from a few minor and ceremonial ones are empowered by the threat of deadly force, whether parking fines or a foreign invasion, there's somebody with a gun there to make sure that we comply.

    When we vote to enforce our will against neighbors who object, we are empowering armed individuals to kill them if the resist sufficiently. We just pretty it up and don't look too closely. We may start with a fine, for instance, but if they don't want to pay, we send somebody with a gun to make them comply or take them to jail. If they flee, they may be shot, that's why the cops have guns.

    That's the power a fraudulent voter wields outside the cover of law. they should be treated as though they tried to compel others with a gun, or succeeded in doing so, Because that's exactly what they did.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  6. #186
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    No, it isn't, that's why it deserves it's own laws, and warrants it's own topic of conversation. It isn't a false equivalency, it's a simple comparison to show the complete and utter irrelevance of your ongoing question of the general scale of voter fraud. You're saying that discussion of criminal punishment is only warranted if the crime is already being committed on a mass scale, yet when you apply the same logic to any other crime, like murder, you quickly see how illogical it is.
    you compared voter fraud to murder. That is indeed employing the fallacy of False Equivalence.

    You did not apply any logic at all. What you applied was the direct opposite.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #187
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    I don't get it. Your first point on betrayal is the whole point of voter fraud, to bypass having people put you in office legitimately. If the purpose of voter fraud isn't to rig the outcome of an election, then what is the purpose of it?


    1. Death sentence is very Christian. Did you skip the old testament and go straight for the new? Go check out Deuteronomy, then come back and tell us all how unchristian it is to kill people.
    2. You absolutely see treason in the animal kingdom. Don't you ever watch Nat Geo? Monkeys stage organised coups against each other, and lets not even get started on wolves, lions etc. They don't come to be the Alpha Male through democratic elections.
    Again, if you have 100 people in a room. All have to vote. 2 people say they won't and someone hears them. he casts 3 votes, 2 frauded in their name. The end: 51 to 49. You still have 49 to 49 without the frauded votes. It means that at least 49% of the people actually do want an option or the other. You, the voter, even the one who did fraud, aren't a traitor, just a fraud.

    But treason would be the guy who counts, taking an oath to serve his job faithfully, decides to say it was 51 to 49 in favor of what he wanted, regardless of what the outcome was. It's like the votes didn't matter. that's treason.

    Get the difference?

    1. Old testament is judaism. Christianity begins at the new testament. You can't validate Christianity on the old testament alone and Jesus was pretty big on forgiveness, even on those who wronged you dearly.

    2. Again, that's not treason. Chimps in a group do organize to overthrow a leader. But that's just like we have elections. A change in leadership by popular opinion. It's bestiocracy really.

  8. #188
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Bravo! You finally see its fundamental problem.
    Nope. The OP asked how people thought a person who commits voter fraud ought to be punished. The OP made no statement about the frequency of voter fraud.

  9. #189
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    I said "yes," though I'd support other strong penalties, such as twenty years at hard labor for minor offenses.

    If you're going to have a republic, and make the individual citizens the ultimate level of government, then voter fraud, or more correctly election fraud has to be seen as tantamount to treason in war. Both are committed for the purpose of overthrowing the government and the sovereignty of the People.

    We send young people to die to protect our system and way of life. We have to be ready and willing to sacrifice the lives of criminal subversives too, or we're morally rotten.
    Election fraud is a different subject and I agree it should be dealt with very harshly, though the death penalty might be a little overboard.
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  10. #190
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    Re: Death penalty for voter fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    1. Old testament is judaism. Christianity begins at the new testament. You can't validate Christianity on the old testament alone and Jesus was pretty big on forgiveness, even on those who wronged you dearly.
    Uh, what? I've never in my life heard anyone claim that "Christianity begins at the new testament". Jesus orders Christians to follow the Law of Moses in the Old Testament: "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law". It's very explicit about the whole thing. Jews believe in the old testament, Christians believe in the original and the sequel. I honestly never even thought for a moment that I'd ever end up debating that, it's simple well documented fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    2. Again, that's not treason. Chimps in a group do organize to overthrow a leader. But that's just like we have elections. A change in leadership by popular opinion. It's bestiocracy really.
    Nope, they frequently do it through brutal violence and occasionally murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket
    you compared voter fraud to murder. That is indeed employing the fallacy of False Equivalence.

    You did not apply any logic at all. What you applied was the direct opposite.
    Honestly, I get the impression your ignorance is just a deliberate facade. You're saying in this thread that we shouldn't discuss punishment for voter fraud unless we can prove that it's widespread, but you don't support using the same logic for other crimes, and you claim not to understand why that's relevant and why it shows a total contradiction in your logic (or lack thereof). It's beyond ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05
    Again, if you have 100 people in a room. All have to vote. 2 people say they won't and someone hears them. he casts 3 votes, 2 frauded in their name. The end: 51 to 49. You still have 49 to 49 without the frauded votes. It means that at least 49% of the people actually do want an option or the other. You, the voter, even the one who did fraud, aren't a traitor, just a fraud.
    It's an attempt at being a traitor. You're simply giving an example where voter fraud is unsuccessful in its end goal.

    You people confuse the hell out of me. I despise representitive democracy with every fiber of my being, it is the root of all modern political oppression, so why does it seem like I'm the only one who thinks a government who comes to power through fraud is even worse than a democratically elected government? How come you scream about how great democracy is, but when people try to pervert it to seize power, you talk about it like it's some victimless crime?

    You need to get some consistency in your arguments. This whole thing is weak.
    If you hate capitalism so much, then just write everything in lower case. Problem solved.

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