• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Institutional Racism [W:344]

Does institutional racism currently exist in America?


  • Total voters
    56
what im saying is my employer has zero qoutas

Well, your employer has no quotas that they're telling you about at least...
 
Well, your employer has no quotas that they're telling you about at least...

no we have no hiring/employment qoutas period.

like i said im a main person for recruiting/hiring
 
good thing i dindt say they arent influential on cultures then huh? LOL so yes your whole post is absolute ridiculous.
please stay on topic to what was ACTUALLY being discussed

they are 100% meaningless to educated civil people as far as behavior influences to be a good or bad person.
Your mistake.

Ignoring your childish ad hominem defense mechanisms, I'll point out that you fail to even understand this topic in it's entirety. Though the topic is institutional racism, a sub argument has spawned about education and how music / media influence one's attitude towards being an intellectual and seeing value in education. If you do not believe people are influenced by such outlets, you are deluding yourself.

If you agree that negative messages regarding education and civil behavior are prevalent in rap music, and that in turn, that music influences people's behavior... What are you arguing?
 
My point is, when you're analyzing something that isn't meant to necessarily be analyzed, it says more about your perception of reality then it does about the song.
No. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.
 
Last edited:
Yes actually. Its pretty well documented that Asians are discriminated against because they are held to much higher standards then any other race. For instance, when Texas switched completely to a top 10% policy for their schools, Asian Americans saw the highest increase in enrollment under the policy.

Also, I would highly doubt that subjective qualifications differ much between races. But I would be happy for you to prove me wrong. Either way, why don't we just solve the issue and forbid colleges from taking race into consideration. If they aren't hold races to different standards, then whats the purpose of race on an application?
It doesn't really matter what you doubt. The fact is that you are making assumptions and treating them as facts. Like I said, medical schools have cutoffs for GPA and MCAT scores. Then, the applications that make the cutoff are considered on their individual merits. If the cutoff is a 3.5 GPA and there are two candidates - one with a 3.6 and the other with a 3.8 - and the 3.6 gets in, the deciding factor could have been recommendations, life story, research experience or something else. You've decided that it's race. That's your problem - not black medical student's or admissions office's.
 
It doesn't really matter what you doubt. The fact is that you are making assumptions and treating them as facts. Like I said, medical schools have cutoffs for GPA and MCAT scores. Then, the applications that make the cutoff are considered on their individual merits. If the cutoff is a 3.5 GPA and there are two candidates - one with a 3.6 and the other with a 3.8 - and the 3.6 gets in, the deciding factor could have been recommendations, life story, research experience or something else. You've decided that it's race. That's your problem - not black medical student's or admissions office's.

It often is race - at least more often than you care to admit.

I graduated from the University of Michigan. I know all too well, as I've seen it with my own school.

Previous leadership roles, community service, activities, and other "dazzle factors" do indeed play a role - I challenge anyone to deny that. Having said that, I still say that race is at the top of the list, and once that's determined as the chief criterion, other less important factors are considered.
 
It doesn't really matter what you doubt. The fact is that you are making assumptions and treating them as facts. Like I said, medical schools have cutoffs for GPA and MCAT scores. Then, the applications that make the cutoff are considered on their individual merits. If the cutoff is a 3.5 GPA and there are two candidates - one with a 3.6 and the other with a 3.8 - and the 3.6 gets in, the deciding factor could have been recommendations, life story, research experience or something else. You've decided that it's race. That's your problem - not black medical student's or admissions office's.

You literally have nothing to back your statement up. And you know it. And you still are avoiding my question. If race doesn't play a factor into Med School acceptance, then would you be in favor of making the application process colorblind? You wouldn't, and you know it, because you know race is playing a factor here.
 
You literally have nothing to back your statement up. And you know it. And you still are avoiding my question. If race doesn't play a factor into Med School acceptance, then would you be in favor of making the application process colorblind? You wouldn't, and you know it, because you know race is playing a factor here.
What are you talking about? You are the one who has the burden of proof. You are claiming that blacks are being held to lower standards. You have failed to demonstrate that. You have also failed to acknowledge the information I've given you about admissions processes. Like I said, again, med schools have GPA and MCAT cutoffs. Everyone who makes the cutoff is evaluated individually. You're assuming that race, not any of the multiple other factors, are what determines admission. Prove that it is.

Hint: You can't. LOL
 
no i dont mean to say that, nor did i
why are you consistently trying to make stuff up LMAO, you fail every-time you try

what im saying is my employer has zero qoutas

we account all our employes in many ways

All it would take is one black congresswoman to get wind of the lack of diversity in a workplace before you had a quota to avoid a lawsuit - even if that means turning away more qualified candidates. If that isn't institutional racism, nothing is.
 
What are you talking about? You are the one who has the burden of proof. You are claiming that blacks are being held to lower standards. You have failed to demonstrate that. You have also failed to acknowledge the information I've given you about admissions processes. Like I said, again, med schools have GPA and MCAT cutoffs. Everyone who makes the cutoff is evaluated individually. You're assuming that race, not any of the multiple other factors, are what determines admission. Prove that it is.

Hint: You can't. LOL

So do you or don't you support making admissions colorblind and forbidding race from playing a factor?
 
So do you or don't you support making admissions colorblind and forbidding race from playing a factor?
I don't answer red herrings. Only dishonest, cowardly people who realize how horrible their arguments are change the topic like you have been trying to do for several posts now.

Let me re-post my repeated answer to your original point to see if you have any integrity: You are the one who has the burden of proof. You are claiming that blacks are being held to lower standards. You have failed to demonstrate that. You have also failed to acknowledge the information I've given you about admissions processes. Like I said, again, med schools have GPA and MCAT cutoffs. Everyone who makes the cutoff is evaluated individually. You're assuming that race, not any of the multiple other factors, are what determines admission. Prove that it is.
 
I don't answer red herrings. Only dishonest, cowardly people who realize how horrible their arguments are change the topic like you have been trying to do for several posts now.

Let me re-post my repeated answer to your original point to see if you have any integrity: You are the one who has the burden of proof. You are claiming that blacks are being held to lower standards. You have failed to demonstrate that. You have also failed to acknowledge the information I've given you about admissions processes. Like I said, again, med schools have GPA and MCAT cutoffs. Everyone who makes the cutoff is evaluated individually. You're assuming that race, not any of the multiple other factors, are what determines admission. Prove that it is.

So you're going to duck and dodge by pulling the "false negative" card? How disingenuous.
 
I don't answer red herrings. Only dishonest, cowardly people who realize how horrible their arguments are change the topic like you have been trying to do for several posts now.

Let me re-post my repeated answer to your original point to see if you have any integrity: You are the one who has the burden of proof. You are claiming that blacks are being held to lower standards. You have failed to demonstrate that. You have also failed to acknowledge the information I've given you about admissions processes. Like I said, again, med schools have GPA and MCAT cutoffs. Everyone who makes the cutoff is evaluated individually. You're assuming that race, not any of the multiple other factors, are what determines admission. Prove that it is.

Before you can go to medical school, you have to pass high school.

"Florida Board of Education to Set Lower Standards for Black Students
Last month, the State Board of Education in Florida approved a new set of student achievement guidelines that sets lower standards for Black youth.

Rather than closing the achievement gaps between students of different races, the guidelines simply accept them."

Florida Board of Education to Set Lower Standards for Black Students
 
Before you can go to medical school, you have to pass high school.

"Florida Board of Education to Set Lower Standards for Black Students
Last month, the State Board of Education in Florida approved a new set of student achievement guidelines that sets lower standards for Black youth.

Rather than closing the achievement gaps between students of different races, the guidelines simply accept them."

Florida Board of Education to Set Lower Standards for Black Students

That's really no surprise. "Dumbing down" for minorities is hardly a new point or even a worthy discussion anymore. Remember when the tests that gauge promotions were thrown out for firefighters in a state up in the Northeast because 19 of the highest 20 scores were from white applicants?

[Edit] I just looked it up. It's Connecticut.

New Haven firefighters in discrimination case get promotions - CNN.com

CNN) -- The city of New Haven, Connecticut, will promote 14 firefighters who were involved in a workplace discrimination case that worked its way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

The firefighters were among the New Haven 20 -- one Hispanic and 19 white firefighters -- who fought the city after it threw out the results of a 2003 firefighter promotion exam that left too few minorities qualified for promotions.

A U.S. District Court issued a judgment finding the city violated the civil rights of a group of the white firefighters when it threw out the exams in 2004, according to Jessica Mayorga, city spokeswoman. The Tuesday decision follows a court action by seven black New Haven firefighters seeking to delay the promotions.

"Yesterday, the court entered an order that provides the City of New Haven with the legal sanction necessary to move forward and promote the fourteen plaintiffs in the Ricci case entitled to promotions," the city said in a statement. "As a result, we intend to do so as soon as practicable."

The firefighters will be promoted to either lieutenant or captain.

Mayorga said the other six involved in the lawsuit were not eligible for promotions that were available at the time the exams were given. She said the court's order only addresses 14 of the 20 plaintiffs. If the exams had been certified in 2004, the other six plaintiffs would not have been promoted.

The case was the center of attention during the Supreme Court confirmation hearings of now-Justice Sonia Sotomayor, who was on the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals that backed the city in the case. The U.S. Supreme Court eventually overturned the appeals court ruling 5-4 earlier this year when the justices ruled that the city improperly threw out the results of the promotion exams.

Key plaintiff Frank Ricci and others took promotion exams in 2003 for lieutenant and captain positions that had become available in Connecticut's second-largest city.

New Haven's personnel department had contracted with a private firm to design the exams.

When the results came back, however, city lawyers expressed concern about the results because none of the black firefighters and only one Latino who took the exam scored high enough to be promoted.

The city said that under a federal civil rights law known as Title VII, employers must ban actions such as promotion tests that would have a "disparate impact" on a protected class, such as a specified race or gender. The group of firefighters, claiming they were wronged by the city's action, then sued, calling themselves the "New Haven 20."

So yeah...nothing new.
 
All it would take is one black congresswoman to get wind of the lack of diversity in a workplace before you had a quota to avoid a lawsuit - even if that means turning away more qualified candidates. If that isn't institutional racism, nothing is.

nope, quotas are illegal :shrug:
and if that did happened behind the scenes it would have nothing to do with AA/EO it would be in violation of it
 
1.)Ignoring your childish ad hominem defense mechanisms,
2.)I'll point out that you fail to even understand this topic in it's entirety.
3.)Though the topic is institutional racism, a sub argument has spawned about education and how music / media influence one's attitude towards being an intellectual and seeing value in education. If you do not believe people are influenced by such outlets, you are deluding yourself.

4.)If you agree that negative messages regarding education and civil behavior are prevalent in rap music, and that in turn, that music influences people's behavior... What are you arguing?

1.) you mean ignoring the fact i pointed out you were wrong and made something up
2.) wrong again, i am sticking to what I was actually discussing, you tried to make something up and failed
3.) almost but not uite that was NOT what i was discussing but since you brought it up again you are still lying. I never said there was no influence, you fail again. if you disagree by all means quote me saying there was no "influence"

its you deluding yourself to believe lies to make your failed straw man argument seem better, its not working
anything else you want to make up and be wrong at?

4.) never said this but if you are asking. Yes many things can have negative messages and have an influence. Never denied that one single time at all.

again feel free to make up anything else you want of next time simply ask to avoid you being confused. :)
 
nope, quotas are illegal :shrug:
and if that did happened behind the scenes it would have nothing to do with AA/EO it would be in violation of it

Not only are quotas legal - they're encouraged. Some places receive federal funds based on "diversity".

Of course, the bigger point is that many corporations require "tokens" to pass inspection by the average Joe and win in the courts of public opinion. Image is everything, and even false claims of racism can damage a company's goodwill. This is why corporate lawyers will always settle, even if the lawsuit is bogus in every possible way, when it comes to red-button issues.
 
I don't answer red herrings. Only dishonest, cowardly people who realize how horrible their arguments are change the topic like you have been trying to do for several posts now.

Let me re-post my repeated answer to your original point to see if you have any integrity: You are the one who has the burden of proof. You are claiming that blacks are being held to lower standards. You have failed to demonstrate that. You have also failed to acknowledge the information I've given you about admissions processes. Like I said, again, med schools have GPA and MCAT cutoffs. Everyone who makes the cutoff is evaluated individually. You're assuming that race, not any of the multiple other factors, are what determines admission. Prove that it is.

If I have any integrity? First you come out in support of Affirmative Action in college applications, then you completely deny that Affirmative Action is taking place and refuse to take a stand on whether or not it has a place in Med School applications. You my friend are the one who is being dishonest and trying to change the topic. I have consistently made the exact same point the entire thread.

You're the one who suggested that blacks have significantly more clinical experience. I've only stated facts, you're the one coming up with alternative theories without offering any support for them. The fact of the matter here is that MCAT scores and GPA scores are the two biggest factors in determining acceptance. No such data exists on the "amount of clinical experience or research" gets one into med school by race. Not to mention, the differences in the acceptance rates between different ethnic groups is so staggering, even a minor difference in clinical experience isn't enough to explain it. The only explaination when grinding the statistics is that race is playing some factor into determining acceptance.

1. For those students applying to medical school with average GPAs (3.40 to 3.59) and average MCAT scores (27-29), black applicants were almost three times more likely to be admitted than Asian applicants (84.0% vs. 28.1%), and 2.5 times more likely than white applicants (84.0% vs. 34.1%). Likewise, Hispanic students with average GPAs and average MCAT scores were about twice as likely to be accepted to medical school as white applicants (68.0% vs. 34.1%), and more than twice as likely as Asian applicants (68.0% vs. 28.1%). Overall, black (84%) and Hispanic (68%) applicants with average GPAs (3.40 to 3.59) and MCAT scores (27-29) were accepted to medical school at rates much higher than the average of 34.8% for all students with those academic credentials.

2. For students applying to medical school with slightly below average GPAs of 3.20-3.39 and slightly below average MCAT scores of 24-26 (first column in the table), black applicants were more than 7 times more likely to be admitted to medical school as Asians (65.4% vs. 9.1%), and more than 5 times more likely as whites (65.4% vs. 12.2%). Compared to the average acceptance rate of 20.3% for all students applying with that combination of GPA and MCAT score, black and Hispanic applicants were much more likely to be accepted, and white and Asian applicants were much less likely to be accepted to medical school.

3. We find the same pattern for students with slightly above average academic credentials. For example, for applicants with MCAT scores of 30-32 (slightly above average) and GPAs between 3.40-3.59 (average), the acceptance rates for blacks (93.2%) and Hispanics (80.6%) are much higher than for whites (54.2%) and Asians (48%).


Acceptance rates at US medical schools between 2010-2012 reveal racial preferences for blacks and Hispanics | AEIdeas

Also, it is abundantly clear whenever states adopt a ban on race conscious admissions (which you refuse to state if you are for or against), the enrollment of minorities drop.

In a comparison of black and Chicano students who were admitted at UC medical schools between 1996 and 1997, Karabel (1998) showed that the numbers enrolled dropped by 38 and 29 percent, respectively, immediately after the ban took effect.

engineering, the percent of graduate students who were students of color before the bans was about 6.2 percent. The estimated 1.6 percentage point drop from the analyses thus represents a decline to about 4.6 percent. Expressed as a fraction of the initial value, this is a decline of over a fourth, or 26 percent. Similarly, the bans led to a 19 percent drop in the natural sciences(from 7.8 percent to 6.3 percent), a 15.7 percent drop in the social sciences(from 12.1 percent to 10.2 percent), and an 11.8 percent decline in the humanities(from 10.2 percent to 9 percent)

I couldn't find a study that only looked at the Med schools in these states, so this will have to do.

Fact is, you won't come out and support race-neutral policies on graduate acceptance programs because you know affirmative action is playing a role here.
 
That's really no surprise. "Dumbing down" for minorities is hardly a new point or even a worthy discussion anymore. Remember when the tests that gauge promotions were thrown out for firefighters in a state up in the Northeast because 19 of the highest 20 scores were from white applicants?

[Edit] I just looked it up. It's Connecticut.

New Haven firefighters in discrimination case get promotions - CNN.com



So yeah...nothing new.

I agree. But apparently, to some, it is.
 
Not only are quotas legal - they're encouraged. Some places receive federal funds based on "diversity".

Of course, the bigger point is that many corporations require "tokens" to pass inspection by the average Joe and win in the courts of public opinion. Image is everything, and even false claims of racism can damage a company's goodwill. This is why corporate lawyers will always settle, even if the lawsuit is bogus in every possible way, when it comes to red-button issues.

as usual you are 100% wrong and this is proven with facts.

QUOTAS are illegal in the US, this fact will not change

any QOUTAS a company sets up they are doing on thier own and they are breakign the law if caught, they can CALL it AA/EO all they want it is factually not true
Affirmative action - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Law regarding quotas and affirmative action varies widely from nation to nation. Caste based quotas are used in Reservation in India. However, they are illegal in the United States, where no employer, university, or other entity may create a set number required for each race.[6]

AA is EO
http://www.dol.gov/ofccp/regs/compliance/aa.htm
Executive Order numerical goals do not create set-asides for specific groups, nor are they designed to achieve proportional representation or equal results.

and AA/EO is
http://www.dol.gov/ofccp/regs/compliance/aa.htm
The contractor will not discriminate against any employee or applicant for employment because of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. The contractor will take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin.

The fact remains colleges and employers have broken the law and been found guilty for having quotas.
Sorry you simply dont understand what AA/EO is.
 
nope, quotas are illegal :shrug:
and if that did happened behind the scenes it would have nothing to do with AA/EO it would be in violation of it

Quotas are encouraged. Ever heard of 'diversity training'? It's a nice way of saying 'hire more minorities.'
 
Quotas are encouraged. Ever heard of 'diversity training'? It's a nice way of saying 'hire more minorities.'

sorry facts disagree with you and prove you wrong, companies/institutions have been fined and have had criminal action taken against them for quotas

OPPORTUNITY is what is required thats it
 
1.) you mean ignoring the fact i pointed out you were wrong and made something up
2.) wrong again, i am sticking to what I was actually discussing, you tried to make something up and failed
3.) almost but not uite that was NOT what i was discussing but since you brought it up again you are still lying. I never said there was no influence, you fail again. if you disagree by all means quote me saying there was no "influence"

its you deluding yourself to believe lies to make your failed straw man argument seem better, its not working
anything else you want to make up and be wrong at?

4.) never said this but if you are asking. Yes many things can have negative messages and have an influence. Never denied that one single time at all.

again feel free to make up anything else you want of next time simply ask to avoid you being confused. :)

1.) It is comical that your best defenses are "no, you fail," and "I never said that."
 
1.) It is comical that your best defenses are "no, you fail," and "I never said that."

its the only defense i need since i factually didnt say it LMAO

whats comical is you dodging the fact

if you disagree simply quote me saying what you claim, come on teach me a lesson prove me wrong.

oh thats right you cant cause you lied LMAO
 
Back
Top Bottom