View Poll Results: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

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Thread: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

  1. #71
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    Re: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I don't see it that way...tax evasion. I see it just the opposite.

    Customer's aren't required to tip their servers. As such, why should the server be required to report the tip to the IRS or even their employer? Now, some night club owners get around this (or should I say "get away with it") by charging their "hostages" and showgirls a monthly maintenance fee OR they charge a percentage of their tips. The former I can understand because you're providing room for the lady to store and maintain her customers (if we can call it that) among other things. And then there's the "tip" for the DJ and the bouncer (which is usually a collective effort by the ladies).

    The premise behind tipping is "a fair exchange ain't no robbery"...performance (service) for value (entertainment). You could make the same argument for waiters and waitresses...service (they take your order, bring you your food and drink) for value (fair market price for good food and drink). But to say that because these people in such service related jobs are "cheating the IRS" is non-sense. If you don't want to leave a tip either because the service was lousy or just out of principle, then don't do it. (But in the case of the latter, you'd better hope your waiter/waitress doesn't remember your face on your next visit. Otherwise, you might want to take caution before you take that first bite of your hamburger or sip of that iced tea - sweet or unsweet.
    I agree with you in principle. If I were the "tax czar", tips would not be taxable income at all. IMO, it's a gift, not income*. I was just stating how the system presently works, and while I actually don't have an issue with individuals reducing their tax liability as much as possible, I do think it's bad form for others to outright push for it in the way these websites that I mentioned do.

    *- I don't think gifts should be taxable, either.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  2. #72
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    Re: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    *- I don't think gifts should be taxable, either.
    Why should governments be allowed to take money that people work hard for (ie, income tax in general), but not money that people do nothing to get? Backwards ethics imho.
    If you hate capitalism so much, then just write everything in lower case. Problem solved.

  3. #73
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    Re: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    If you can't make enough money in your business to pay minimum wage you don't deserve to be in business. Simple. This is one of the differences between the US and Pakistan.
    Then you better speak up if the government ever tries to drive the economy into the ground by giving in to these people *itching for $15/hr minimum wages as we speak. In particular, places like fast food that keep their prices low because of the low skill level of employees and cheap ingredients will have to jack their prices if forced to pay employees double their value.
    Last edited by Mathematician; 05-28-13 at 07:38 AM.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
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    Re: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    Why should governments be allowed to take money that people work hard for (ie, income tax in general), but not money that people do nothing to get? Backwards ethics imho.
    I think you're confusing "productivity" with "services rendered". Both have similar profit motives only one involves the exchange for a tangible product for currency whereas the other involves recognition on the part of the consumers to validate quality services rendered and reward that service accordingly. Either way, someone had to "work" to produce that product same as someone had to "work" to provide that quality service. Different energy output, but it's still "hard work".

    So, what's the difference in taxation? A service isn't always a product one can consume. It's usually a task one performs. So, if I perform a task that does result in the creation of a tangible object or it's direct resell, I shouldn't have to pay a tax for that service. Let's compare a car salesman with a lawncare service.

    The car salesman didn't make the car...had no involvement with it's creation, but by default his job IS to push the product. His wages, thus, are rightly taxed under the law.

    A lawncare service should never charge a sales tax to its customers just to mow the lawn, but if that lawcare it involves the sale of merchandise to beautify or alter the landscape, the company should apply the sales tax accordingly.

    Both involve "services rendered", i.e., the car salesman = showing the car, doing the paperwork the results in the sale; lawncare service = trimming your lawn, applying weed killer, fertilizer, installing a sprinkler system, etc., but one generally always results in moving product while the other may not.

    Now, to be fair, waiters and waitresses do "move" product - food and drink - but their job isn't to sell it to the customer. He or she is merely providing the customer with a list of options from which to choose and brings those items to the customer. The actually "sale" comes at the end of the meal when the customer pays the bill.

    That's the difference.

    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery."

  5. #75
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    Re: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I think you're confusing "productivity" with "services rendered"
    Sorry, I think you might be confusing my response. I was talking about the previous poster's assertion that he doesn't think gifts should be taxable. Gifts and tips are different in my opinion.
    If you hate capitalism so much, then just write everything in lower case. Problem solved.

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    Re: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    Sorry, I think you might be confusing my response. I was talking about the previous poster's assertion that he doesn't think gifts should be taxable. Gifts and tips are different in my opinion.
    Oh, very well then. Carry on.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

  7. #77
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    Re: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    Then you better speak up if the government ever tries to drive the economy into the ground by giving in to these people *itching for $15/hr minimum wages as we speak. In particular, places like fast food that keep their prices low because of the low skill level of employees and cheap ingredients will have to jack their prices if forced to pay employees double their value.
    Well, making fast food more expensive isn't necessarily a bad thing......

    But the reality is, as the minimum wage climbs so does the pressure of owners to automate as much as possible. Maybe one day a few minimum wage employees and a couple low paid supervisors might be all that is needed to keep a McDonalds open 24h. Never discount technology to make jobs obsolete.

  8. #78
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    Re: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenc View Post
    Never discount technology to make jobs obsolete.
    Never discount government regulation of private businesses to make jobs obsolete. Without minimum wage, there would always be a question of whether it's cheaper to hire and maintain a machine than a person.

    Again, for anyone who didn't see my initial link to it: Edgar the Exploiter - YouTube
    If you hate capitalism so much, then just write everything in lower case. Problem solved.

  9. #79
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    Re: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    Then you better speak up if the government ever tries to drive the economy into the ground by giving in to these people *itching for $15/hr minimum wages as we speak. In particular, places like fast food that keep their prices low because of the low skill level of employees and cheap ingredients will have to jack their prices if forced to pay employees double their value.
    'MacDonalds' et.al. are international. There's lots of places where they pay a livable (if barely) minimum wage and I've never heard of anywhere they can't make enough money to stay open. I've seen fast-food joints in Vancouver full at lunchtime and there was three food carts, with no overhead and no employees, on the sidewalk along the block in front.
    Maybe there's a bit of fear-mongering involved if someone is telling you that the minimum-wage laws will 'drive the economy into the ground'.

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    Re: Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

    I'm curious what kind of wages we would see if there were no minimum wages laws. How much would the part time employee at McDonalds make without a minimum wage law?

    Why not do away with it and see how low the unskilled are willing to go? Maybe they will be willing to go so low as to be competitive with the global unskilled and jobs will start to pour into the USA. We would then just have to get the other drags on employers, like OSHA and EPA, to be equal to the global standard and we will then be competitive on a global level again. But would the skilled workers really want to live in that world?

    It's called the race to the bottom and no one wins that race.

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