View Poll Results: Should We open the borders?

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  • Yes

    10 12.82%
  • No

    68 87.18%
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Thread: Should we open the borders?

  1. #71
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    Re: Should we open the borders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    You mean like the Italian mafia in the 1930's or the drunken Irish in the late 1800's?

    There is nothing new under the sun here. Those waves of immigrants made America better today, as will this current wave of immigrants.
    Once again you're conflating immigrants with illegal aliens. Not the same beast at all.

  2. #72
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    Re: Should we open the borders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Economic protectionism is a failed model. I think Americans can compete with anybody in the world.

    I don't think we should fear competition from anybody. I think we should accept it as a challenge, and expect to win. That's how I approach it anyway.


    wooptee **** for you.

    In my youth I watched the textile industry of the South collapse and get sent overseas. I watched as millions of people lost good-paying jobs and ended up working for peanuts, or on welfare, or losing their homes. The economy in many parts of the south has STILL not recovered.


    In 1980 you could make a GOOD living in home construction. Now most of those jobs are taken by illegals and pay miniumum wage and houses STILL cost four times what they cost in 1980.

    Yeah we're winning just great.

    Next we should let those Ph.D engineers in India who make $5,000 a year compete with American engineers accustomed to making $100,000 a year or more...

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  3. #73
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    Re: Should we open the borders?

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    And if you do I'd rather see you fined and go to jail.
    I can't help but think we're becoming Rome.

    Roman citizenship was a privileged political and legal status afforded to freeborn individuals with respect to laws, property, and governance.

    In the Roman Republic and later in the Roman Empire, people resident within the Roman state could roughly be divided and stratified into several classes: citizens, Latin Right holders, slaves, freedman, etc.

    Citizenship, and the benefits that came with it, was a birthright, an entitlement. It was rarely earned.

    I won't bore you with a history lesson, but when we talk about having "guest workers" and so forth, I can't help but be reminded of Rome's stratified class system.

    America, to me, has always been about something different. This country has always seemed to stand for the ethic that, if you're willing to work hard and take some risks, you'll be rewarded on the merit of what you do. We don't have nobility or birthrights in America, at least, we didn't used to.

    We're going down a road I'm not happy to be going down. We're slowly but surely becoming what Europe was before all the Americans left to come to America.



    Get rid of the mindset that being born a "citizen" entitles you to anything more than someone who wasn't born with that distinction. Distinguish yourself through your knowledge, your skills, and your work ethic. Compete. Win because you're better, not because you were born with a silver spoon.

    That's what America is about.

  4. #74
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    Re: Should we open the borders?

    ]I think there are very few if any here who are anti-immigration. In fact, from my own view, I love immigrants and love what they bring to the mix.
    •••Maybe I misunderstood but I thought I heard some strong anti-immigration sentiment. So I may have been responding to an invisible monster.

    The first statement is effectively incorrect. There is middle ground between what we have now enforcement wise and what you suggest, that's what some of us have been calling for from the beginning. And it wouldn't take any more regulation or laws than exists right now (perhaps with a couple exceptions).
    •••Are you saying it is plausible to build a 2000 mile wall on the Mexican border? Can you amplify some middle-ground for me please?

    You betcha I've noticed, as have we all. Have you noticed that the majority of the American public has always been behind enforcing our immigration laws where it comes to illegals? NAFTA, CAFTA, moves to globalize, all things the American people have been against yet every POTUS in my lifetime has ignored the people on these fronts.
    •••So why is that? Were thy all paid off? Did they all determine it was best not to address this? Were they all incompetent? I'd like to think there is some rationale to this.


    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    I think there are very few if any here who are anti-immigration. In fact, from my own view, I love immigrants and love what they bring to the mix.



    The first statement is effectively incorrect. There is middle ground between what we have now enforcement wise and what you suggest, that's what some of us have been calling for from the beginning. And it wouldn't take any more regulation or laws than exists right now (perhaps with a couple exceptions).



    You betcha I've noticed, as have we all. Have you noticed that the majority of the American public has always been behind enforcing our immigration laws where it comes to illegals? NAFTA, CAFTA, moves to globalize, all things the American people have been against yet every POTUS in my lifetime has ignored the people on these fronts.

  5. #75
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    Re: Should we open the borders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Simply put too many people would come too quickly without adequate time for the infrastructure, economy, and housing system to cater for them. I had a friend who served with the Spanish army on the Spanish/Moroccan border in Ceuta (Spanish enclave in Morocco) and he said that people would literally hurl themselves at huge barbed wire fences in an attempt to get in to Europe. If people are willing to do that to get into whats actually a very poor country by first world standards think how many will come to the U.S if there are no restrictions whatsoever. Though thats not to say that I'm against loosening the restrictions.

    Well, roughly 30% of Mexico's total population currently resides in the United States illegally. That figure doesn't even count the millions who were granted amnesty in the 80's. How much "worse" can it get?

  6. #76
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    Re: Should we open the borders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I can't help but think we're becoming Rome.

    Roman citizenship was a privileged political and legal status afforded to freeborn individuals with respect to laws, property, and governance.

    In the Roman Republic and later in the Roman Empire, people resident within the Roman state could roughly be divided and stratified into several classes: citizens, Latin Right holders, slaves, freedman, etc.

    Citizenship, and the benefits that came with it, was a birthright, an entitlement. It was rarely earned.

    I won't bore you with a history lesson, but when we talk about having "guest workers" and so forth, I can't help but be reminded of Rome's stratified class system.

    America, to me, has always been about something different. This country has always seemed to stand for the ethic that, if you're willing to work hard and take some risks, you'll be rewarded on the merit of what you do. We don't have nobility or birthrights in America, at least, we didn't used to.

    We're going down a road I'm not happy to be going down. We're slowly but surely becoming what Europe was before all the Americans left to come to America.



    Get rid of the mindset that being born a "citizen" entitles you to anything more than someone who wasn't born with that distinction. Distinguish yourself through your knowledge, your skills, and your work ethic. Compete. Win because you're better, not because you were born with a silver spoon.

    That's what America is about.


    What you're giving is merely a snapshot of Rome from one time. Later, citizenship was extended in a more universal way, primarily for reasons related to expanding the tax base............................

  7. #77
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    Re: Should we open the borders?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    No, I'm sure the drug cartels keep them out. Like Saddam, they don't like sharing any kind of power - unless, of course, they get paid well.
    Exactly. Put yourself in their shoes. If I'm a drug cartel king in Mexico, and some towel-wearing dude with sandals comes in to my barrio trying to build bombs and whatnot, I'm not exactly going to welcome him with open arms.

    People tend to operate on the basis of self-interest, and it's against their self-interest to allow Muslim extremists in to their country.

    The whole idea is nothing but a xenophobic scare tactic. Fear is the worst motivator.

    I'd rather be driven by the opportunity that the influx of new workers, new ideas, etc could bring than be driven by the fear of xenophobia.

  8. #78
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    Re: Should we open the borders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Well, roughly 30% of Mexico's total population currently resides in the United States illegally. That figure doesn't even count the millions who were granted amnesty in the 80's. How much "worse" can it get?
    Well those who go to the U.S illegally often spend their lives savings (sometimes traveling up from countries well to the South of Mexico) despite the fact that its hit or miss whether they will get in or even survive the journey. So i think its reasonable to expect that if these odds were taken away then the numbers would increase exponentially. Not to mention that many of those currently trying to get into Europe would change focus.

  9. #79
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    Re: Should we open the borders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzai View Post
    What you're giving is merely a snapshot of Rome from one time. Later, citizenship was extended in a more universal way, primarily for reasons related to expanding the tax base............................
    Amnesty?

  10. #80
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    Re: Should we open the borders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    You're coming from the place that Americans are entitled to those jobs.
    Exactly. And anyone who disagrees is a traitor IMNSHO.

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