View Poll Results: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

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Thread: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

  1. #271
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    Re: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    As I said, I don't currently live in the US, but the main one that bothers me everywhere I go is the opportunity to pay less income tax by filing joint tax returns. This can occasionally work the opposite way, but more often than not it leads to married couples getting to keep more of the money they earn than me. Or to put it another way, they get less stolen from them. Depending on the country, married couples also sometimes get a flat rate deduction on their income taxes and capital gains.

    Income tax is a big deal to a lot of people. If I could abolish it outright I would. Failing that, I think the rules should be the same for everyone. Government tax breaks are just another manipulation of enslaved economies. They steal your money and make you think they are being generous when they agree to steal slightly less.
    This income tax thing is just wrong. Most, on average, don't pay this. There would be basically the same amount almost brought in if they both filed separately. This is easily shown by the fact that 51% of individuals who are married pay less, and 42% pay more. Most would believe that this means that most couples pay less as married than if they filed separately. But the truth is that this is individuals, not couples. Most of that 51% is actually the spouses of many of that 42% and they really just balance each other out.

    The rules aren't the same for everyone anyway. There are numerous deductions that have a much higher impact on how much or little a person pays than marriage. Deductions in taxes are given when people believe that those things that are given deductions are seen as benefits in other ways to society.

    Plus, this doesn't really stand up well in an argument for abolishing marriage, only tax incentives for marriage. If you think these are wrong, convince others that they are so they work to change those laws. Otherwise, you are simply complaining. And it sounds like you are trying to throw the tub out with the dirty water when there is no reason to do so.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #272
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    Re: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Except you are making an assumption that they are haven't made any promises. Just because the promise isn't on paper, doesn't mean it wasn't made. "I'll take care of you baby for the rest of your life, don't worry, we don't need paperwork to prove that. Don't you trust me?" This is still a promise. It is a less protected promise but one that is unfortunately made all the time.

    You need to prove that you pay more taxes than me. As an individual, I technically pay more taxes than I would if I were single, my husband is the one who may pay less (he makes more than I do).

    But there are plenty of tax disparities because the government gives tax incentives for things that society considers a positive, including taking care of children, adopting children (an additional tax credit to the child credit itself), donating time/money to charity, making their property more energy efficient, going to school, going overseas to combat, and many other things.

    You don't get the extra benefits because it is not likely that you need them or want them to begin with (most friends buying property with each other have separate interests in that property and would be more likely to want to leave that interest to someone else, whereas a married couple is owning that property as one person, where they cannot give their "half" of the property to anyone (without specifying that they want to do so in the original agreement to buy it) because they are considered a single person). But along with this, you are not agreeing to the other conditions that are the reason that the benefits are given. Why should you get the perks without the downfalls that come with it? If you are willing to take the negatives, then there should be nothing to prevent you from getting married to your friend just for all the benefits as long as you are willing to take the responsibilities on as well.

    I could be divorced (not likely though) but that doesn't cost you any more money than if my husband and I were simply living together without marriage and decided to breakup. If you think differently, prove it with numbers. So far, you haven't shown how my being in a marriage contract affects you at all.
    Many of the things you said have legitimate positives that can be easily rationalized and proven. Encouraging couples to marry through tax incentives is the government pushing its morality on others who don't want it.

    To support that, you unconsciously support all of America's "wars of aggression". And no - that's not hyperbole. Both instances involve America telling others what is "right".

  3. #273
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    Re: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Many of the things you said have legitimate positives that can be easily rationalized and proven. Encouraging couples to marry through tax incentives is the government pushing its morality on others who don't want it.

    To support that, you unconsciously support all of America's "wars of aggression". And no - that's not hyperbole. Both instances involve America telling others what is "right".
    No, it is encouraging something that is seen as a positive and has been shown as such in several studies. That isn't an assumption. Many studies show marriage as a positive.

    No one is telling anyone they have to be married. What they are saying is marriage is a contract that helps a couple, benefits a couple, but it also comes with certain responsibilities and each person will be held accountable for making a promise to the other. For many, it isn't a big deal and they can work out something fairly between them. For others, they thought they would get more from the arrangement because of that contract but find out differently. In some cases, one person does receive a bad deal, but this could happen and is more likely to happen, without marriage.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #274
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    Re: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This income tax thing is just wrong. Most, on average, don't pay this. There would be basically the same amount almost brought in if they both filed separately. This is easily shown by the fact that 51% of individuals who are married pay less, and 42% pay more. Most would believe that this means that most couples pay less as married than if they filed separately. But the truth is that this is individuals, not couples. Most of that 51% is actually the spouses of many of that 42% and they really just balance each other out.
    It's not wrong where I live, and a quick google shows it's not wrong in the US either:

    "Studies show that despite all of the noise about the marriage penalty, more than half of married couples actually pay less in taxes than they would if they were still single [source:Weston]. That's called a marriage bonus. The marriage bonus is largest when one spouse makes a lot more money than the other, but there are other situations -- like estate transfers or selling a home -- in which your marriage status can save you serious bucks on tax day."
    HowStuffWorks "5 Tax Benefits That Come With Marriage" (I assume this relates to US tax laws).

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke
    The rules aren't the same for everyone anyway. There are numerous deductions that have a much higher impact on how much or little a person pays than marriage. Deductions in taxes are given when people believe that those things that are given deductions are seen as benefits in other ways to society.
    I keep hearing that, but I don't seem to get many of these magical deductions despite the fact that I contribute vastly more to the economy than most individuals and I use less public services (only the ones I'm forced to).

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke
    Plus, this doesn't really stand up well in an argument for abolishing marriage, only tax incentives for marriage. If you think these are wrong, convince others that they are so they work to change those laws. Otherwise, you are simply complaining. And it sounds like you are trying to throw the tub out with the dirty water when there is no reason to do so.
    Why does marriage have to be a legal concept if not for tax breaks? Why can't marriage just be a promise between two or more individuals? No one is talking about abolishing promises, they are talking about abolishing an out dated legal concept.

  5. #275
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    Re: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    It's not wrong where I live, and a quick google shows it's not wrong in the US either:

    "Studies show that despite all of the noise about the marriage penalty, more than half of married couples actually pay less in taxes than they would if they were still single [source:Weston]. That's called a marriage bonus. The marriage bonus is largest when one spouse makes a lot more money than the other, but there are other situations -- like estate transfers or selling a home -- in which your marriage status can save you serious bucks on tax day."
    HowStuffWorks "5 Tax Benefits That Come With Marriage" (I assume this relates to US tax laws).


    I keep hearing that, but I don't seem to get many of these magical deductions despite the fact that I contribute vastly more to the economy than most individuals and I use less public services (only the ones I'm forced to).


    Why does marriage have to be a legal concept if not for tax breaks? Why can't marriage just be a promise between two or more individuals? No one is talking about abolishing promises, they are talking about abolishing an out dated legal concept.
    That "Weston" source is where I got my information. That article got it wrong. More than half of married people pay less (just slightly 51%), but that is individual people, not couples. I read the actual study. I was using the numbers from that study with "51% and 42%". I covered that people get those wrong. Plus it was from around 2000.

    The "estate transfers or selling a home" are referring to the fact that you are viewed as a single person in those situations instead of two people with two individual tax obligations. Married couples have agreed to be married and take care of each other, particularly while they are married. That arrangement gives them certain benefits because they are also likely to buy another house together and live in it together, rather than going their separate ways.

    There are plenty of protections legal marriage, as a single contract, provide for couples. The majority of the benefits of marriage are legal protections that view the couple as owning property between them as if they were a single person, so that creditors cannot go after the property if they are only after one of the two, relatives cannot go after their stuff in the event of death or try to make decisions that should be for the spouse (such as Terry Schiavo), and if they do break up, then one person is less likely to get to take everything and leave the other without.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #276
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    Re: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    As I said, I don't currently live in the US, but the main one that bothers me everywhere I go is the opportunity to pay less income tax by filing joint tax returns. This can occasionally work the opposite way, but more often than not it leads to married couples getting to keep more of the money they earn than me. Or to put it another way, they get less stolen from them. Depending on the country, married couples also sometimes get a flat rate deduction on their income taxes and capital gains.

    Income tax is a big deal to a lot of people. If I could abolish it outright I would. Failing that, I think the rules should be the same for everyone. Government tax breaks are just another manipulation of enslaved economies. They steal your money and make you think they are being generous when they agree to steal slightly less.
    Basically, if the lower income spouse makes half or more than the other then the tax is the same as if they filed as singles, which also means, if they have kids they're actually paying more than one spouse filling head of household and the other filling single. The only time it gets funny is when there are no kids and the income is radically different - or you start pushing into the upper 20% bracket.

    US tax tables, which are included in the instructions, and tax forms can be downloaded at IRS.gov. Look for i1040 for the tables/instructions and f1040 for the form.
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  7. #277
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    Re: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    Why does marriage have to be a legal concept if not for tax breaks? Why can't marriage just be a promise between two or more individuals? No one is talking about abolishing promises, they are talking about abolishing an out dated legal concept.
    Why should I have to file a permission form for my spouse to see me in the hospital when others can't? Why should I have to file a document giving my wife the power of life and death over me if I'm incapacitated? Why should my sister (or whoever) have any right at all to sue my wife over property after I'm gone? There are several other things covered in common law for married couples that two singles don't have. It's not all about money. In fact, most of it isn't about money - unless maybe you're in the upper quintile, and those people have the money to dodge the tax man anyway.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-24-13 at 02:27 PM.
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    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  8. #278
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    Re: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You can find many companies that will provide insurance for your significant other without legal marriage. You can also get legal paperwork to have to cover "legal issues". How else would you do this without the government? Wouldn't you still need paperwork? Pretty sure you would and it would be a lot more paperwork that you would need.
    Without the government other forms of paperwork would be accepted.

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    Re: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You would require something that would be much more complicated and require a lot more paperwork.
    Not necessarily.

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    Re: Should we do away with marriage as a legal status?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) then you go to court to file, why on earth would your name not be there if you are married LMAO
    2.) no issue file for custody
    3.) no they are sperate
    4.) nope not required this is a lie
    5.) nope legal marriage is fine
    6.) facts and this very thread prove oyu wrong
    7.) and based on facts
    LMAO
    1) We're talking about not legally married couples, Einstein. Are you seriously this slow? Keep up...
    2) Harder to do without being legally married
    3) They are both issues
    4) Yes it is
    5) Nope, it should be abolished
    6) Negative, they prove the opposite
    7) Right, in your little mind.

    again i simply ask you, if you disagree just prove me wrong, why do you keep dodging this?

    please list the facts that prove you are FORCED to marry.
    I've already demonstrated why the government being involved in the marriage business coerces people to get legally married rather than religious institutions alone.

    If your argument made sense (which it doesn't), then nobody would ever bother getting legally married. They would just have their wedding and that would be that. Obviously there is an incentive to get legally married, which is the result of the government being involved with the marriage business to begin with. You fail at logic, completely.

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