View Poll Results: Is fascism left or right wing?

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    28 23.53%
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    62 52.10%
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    20 16.81%
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Thread: Is Fascism Right Wing?

  1. #61
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Half correct, liberal/left has generally wanted more control of economics, but on the social scale want more individual freedoms. Right/conservatives on social issues have trended toward less individual freedom, more towards authoritarianism.
    Now I see where you F'ed up....you equated statism....with liberalism.

    Good grief.

    In political science, statism (French: étatisme) is the belief that a government should control either economic or social policy, or both, to some degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    I am a medical provider. Try having the pressure of someones life in your hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  2. #62
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Again, you are still just flat out wrong when you say that liberalism wants LESS social freedoms.

    It is a simple error you really need to correct.
    Liberalism, by definition, wants MORE social - and economic - freedoms.

    The problem with American word usage is that "liberalism" is used, most illogically, to label socialists and social democrats. Some of them want more social freedoms, some do not. Those who do not fall under my definition of "The Left".

  3. #63
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Liberalism, by definition, wants MORE social - and economic - freedoms.
    NO NO NO....that is "libertarianism", NOT liberalism.



    The problem with American word usage is that "liberalism" is used, most illogically, to label socialists and social democrats. Some of them want more social freedoms, some do not. Those who do not fall under my definition of "The Left".
    You need to stop using YOUR definitions in a discussion of poli-sci. Statism is not liberalism, libertarianism is NOT liberalism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    I am a medical provider. Try having the pressure of someones life in your hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  4. #64
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Now I see where you F'ed up....you equated statism....with liberalism.

    Good grief..
    It was you conflated "liberal" with "left", not me. I prefer to think of myself as liberal, in the continental European fashion.

    As for equating "statism" with the left-wing policies - well, that's what "left-wing" means to me, based on what every left-wing government in history did so far.
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 05-21-13 at 04:06 PM.

  5. #65
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    NO NO NO....that is "libertarianism", NOT liberalism.
    Sure it is. Classical liberalism, from Condorcet to Mill to Bastiat to Hayek. American "liberalism", on the other hand, is a misnomer of the local brand of moderate socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You need to stop using YOUR definitions in a discussion of poli-sci.
    .
    In case you didn't notice, this is a thread about OUR definitions.

  6. #66
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Indeed View Post
    In school, I was taught that fascism was not in fact right wing, but compared to American Government, it was very much left wing. Our history class taught that the Nazi party of Germany had a meeting with the Communist Party of Germany to discuss a number of things starting on what slogans would be and what category they would say they were. Fascists were very much left wing, but they looked like right wing extremists compared to the communists, so they decided to call the communists left wing and call the fascists right wing to avoid confusion.
    Fascism is left wing because you cannot own a business or large home if you don't toe the line that the ruling party draws.. If you don't toe the line, they take your business and give it to someone who will. It is far right of either communism or socialism in that it allows private property at all. In socialism the government owns all the business and makes sure that everyone is paid equally, and in communism the gov't owns everything and makes sure that everyone has everything they need.
    So fascism is far right of communism but still pretty far left of American conservatism. It's somewhere in the middle.

    I know you've been taught it is all about left and right, but the truth is that all this "left" and "right" stuff, and the traditional left-right "scale", is just made up bull****.

    The 3D version makes more sense, typically with economic freedom on one axis and political freedom on the other, but even it is just a CONSTRUCT... a representation of something based on various assumptions.

    In reality, people and their views are complicated, and so are societies and governments... too complex to easily fit on any scale or matrix.


    Fascism is neither left nor right, it is just Fascism. Authoritarianism and totalitarianism are terms indicating government control. Fascism tends to be authoritarian, and often dictatorial. So do the more extreme versions of Socialism or Soviet and Red Chinese Communism.



    Fundamentally there are two kinds of government: Limited and Unlimited. Limited governments have some kind of checks and balances and built-in limitations to keep them in check. Unlimited governments have NO limit to how authortarian or totalitarian they can become except "how much will the people put up with before they revolt?"

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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  7. #67
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    It was you conflated "liberal" with "left", not me. I prefer to think of myself as liberal, in the continental European fashion.
    I don't know why you think the world revolves around your definitions. Hint: It doesn't. It is generally accepted that "the left" is a move towards liberalism.

    As for equating "statism" with the left-wing policies - well, that's what "left-wing" means to me, based on what every left-wing government in history did so far.
    And again, this all comes from YOUR personal bias, you have twisted the meanings to suit yourself. Statism is practiced to some degree by both left and right govts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    I am a medical provider. Try having the pressure of someones life in your hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  8. #68
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    It's traditionally considered right-wing by historians and political scientists due to its nationalistic and militaristic nature.

    Note that throughout recent political history the definition of "right-wing" has not been "less government." And the definition of left-wing is not necessarily "more government." That is a false dichotomy that many libertarians have manufactured in order to obscure debate.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  9. #69
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Sure it is. Classical liberalism, from Condorcet to Mill to Bastiat to Hayek. American "liberalism", on the other hand, is a misnomer of the local brand of moderate socialism.
    Now you are equating libertarianism to "Classical Liberalism", whatever bub, it becomes clear just how self centered your vocabulary is.



    In case you didn't notice, this is a thread about OUR definitions.
    No, actually, it is not. It has become that, but it isn't, it was started from the premise of what the OP was taught (incorrectly).
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters."
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    I am a medical provider. Try having the pressure of someones life in your hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  10. #70
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Classical liberalism is a philosophy committed to the ideal of limited government and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.[1]

    Classical liberalism developed in the nineteenth century in Western Europe, and the Americas. Although classical liberalism built on ideas that had already developed by the end of the eighteenth century, it advocated a specific kind of society, government and public policy required as a result of the Industrial Revolution and urbanization.[2] Notable individuals who have contributed to classical liberalism include Jean-Baptiste Say, Thomas Malthus and David Ricardo.[3] It drew on the economics of Adam Smith, a psychological understanding of individual liberty, natural law and utilitarianism, and a belief in progress. Classical liberals established political parties that were called "liberal", although in the United States classical liberalism came to dominate both existing major political parties.[1] There was a revival of interest in classical liberalism in the twentieth century led by Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman.

    In the late 19th century, classical liberalism developed into neo-classical liberalism, which argued for government to be as small as possible in order to allow the exercise of individual freedom. In its most extreme form, it advocated Social Darwinism. Libertarianism is a modern form of neo-classical liberalism.

    The term classical liberalism was applied in retrospect to distinguish earlier nineteenth-century liberalism from the newer social liberalism. The phrase classical liberalism is also sometimes used to refer to all forms of liberalism before the twentieth century, and some conservatives and libertarians use the term classical liberalism to describe their belief in the primacy of economic freedom and minimal government. It is not always clear which meaning is intended.
    Anti-Democracy advocate, Mixed government is the only good government

    THE
    second point to be examined is, whether the [constitutional ]convention were authorized to frame and propose this mixed Constitution.


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