View Poll Results: Is fascism left or right wing?

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    62 52.10%
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Thread: Is Fascism Right Wing?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    That doesn't mean we shouldn't aim to make it as free as possible.
    I don't disagree, but freedom doesn't always mean better. A free market is not perfection.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #42
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    But if the vast majority of specific leftist leaderships manifest extreme social conservatism - as was the case with the Communist regimes in the 20th century - doesn't it become a "general feature".
    And since liberals have come to reject the totalitarianism of Stalinism, I don't know what your point is, you were wrong about liberals wanting less social freedoms and you just can't accept that.

    The very idea that we can neatly separate economic freedoms and social ones is silly: they are interdependent.
    They are, but the freedom to monopolize does not equal freedom for all economically....hence the reason liberals tend towards more regulation of markets where an individual is more free in an economic sense.


    Freedom of choice is freedom of choice. The real - "classical" - liberals ('libertarians' in modern American usage) are proponents of freedom of choice, and as such "right-wing"
    Libertarians want total freedom in economics, which has attracted the right wing in large measure towards those ideas, but as I showed above, that does not necessarily lead greater economic freedom for everyone.


    if we want to be logical and admit that Fascism, Nazism and Communism are varieties of the collectivist, statist ideology that belong on the Far Left, and nowhere else.
    Except that in reality the first two were brothers pitted ideologically against the third from the early 1900's to '45. Beyond that, Communism began as a freeing of the worker from the monarch... and then the bourgeoisie....but became authoritarian without much in the way of liberal characteristics. I still don't know why you can't face up to your original error.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  3. #43
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    What is America's True Form of Government

    explanation of communism, fascism, socialism, .......democracy and a republic

    What is America's True Form of Government? - YouTube

  4. #44
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    And since liberals have come to reject the totalitarianism.
    .

    Actual liberals - of course. The American Left was widely sympathetic with the 'Soviet experiment'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    the freedom to monopolize does not equal freedom for all economically .
    .

    Of course. And while actual liberals (libertarians) promote free market, leftists promote various degrees of state monopolism or crony capitalism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Except that in reality the first two were brothers pitted ideologically against the third from the early 1900's to '45. .
    Rather, three brothers engaged in sibling rivalry. (When not ripping Poland apart together). Ideological differences were marginal, and mostly on the level of slogans, not practical policies.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Communism began as a freeing of the worker from the monarch.
    Communism had nothing to do with it. The Leninists staged a violent putsch against the forces that ended monarchy in February of 1917.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    became authoritarian without much in the way of liberal characteristics. .
    It was totalitarian from the beginning, in theory and in practice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    I still don't know why you can't face up to your original error.
    Because there's no error. The label "liberal" in application to the Left makes no sense whatsoever, that's the source of confusion.
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 05-21-13 at 05:03 PM.

  5. #45
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    The notion that left-wing politics versus right-wing politics is determined by the degree of government interference in the economy is a fallacy-- and borderline absurd. Look at American politics, for example. The difference between Conservative and Liberal isn't the degree of interference, but rather the supposed beneficiaries of it.

    The difference between the Left Wing and the Right Wing isn't control, it is hierarchy. The Right Wing believes that, whether by natural talent or by learned discipline, some people are just better than others, and that those people rightfully deserve positions of power, influence, and respect within society; they believe that the strong should be rewarded for their superiority and that the weak should be coddled as little as possible. This is what unites the authoritarian Fascists, the traditionalist Conservatives, and the Libertarians. The Left Wing believes that people are all more or less equal, that everyone deserves a seat at the table and a voice in the conversation; they believe that the underprivileged will naturally elevate themselves if given the means to do so. This is what unites the liberal individualist Progressives and the collectivist Socialists.

    Calling Fascists "Left Wing" and comparing them to Socialists is as foolish and misguided as allowing Social Conservatives to get away with calling themselves small-l libertarians.

  6. #46
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    The Right Wing believes that, whether by natural talent or by learned discipline, some people are just better than others, and that those people rightfully deserve positions of power, influence, and respect within society; they believe that the strong should be rewarded for their superiority and that the weak should be coddled as little as possible. This is what unites the authoritarian Fascists, the traditionalist Conservatives, and the Libertarians.
    This is not true at all for the Fascists (the nation is one big happy family, with extensive welfare support for the weak), and not true for libertarians either (we aim at limiting "positions of power", not placing the "worthy" individuals there)

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    The Left Wing believes that people are all more or less equal, that everyone deserves a seat at the table and a voice in the conversation; they believe that the underprivileged will naturally elevate themselves if given the means to do so. This is what unites the liberal individualist Progressives and the collectivist Socialists..
    Not true at all for the Communists - who actively denied any "seat at the table" to anyone but the "chosen class" of the "proletariat" (in reality - the state bureaucracy), while the assumption of equality is shared by libertarians - and many conservatives as well.

  7. #47
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    .

    Actual liberals - of course. The American Left was widely sympathetic with the 'Soviet experiment'.
    Um, possibly only the basic ideas of freedom for workers, but I'm a liberal have have no illusions about Stalin.

    .

    Of course. And while actual liberals (libertarians) promote free market, leftists promote various degrees of state monopolism or crony capitalism.
    Sigh, rhetoric without merit. You are still wrong about liberals wanting less social freedoms.




    Rather, three brothers engaged in sibling rivalry. (When not ripping Poland apart together). Ideological differences were marginal, and mostly on the level of slogans, not practical policies.
    Um, Italy wasn't involved in Poland, and the ideologies of Lenin were different from Mussolini/Hitler....but I think I already conceded on Stalin as a Red fascist. I hope you don't think that the fights in the streets of Berlin in '32 were just imaginary.




    Communism had nothing to do with it. The Leninists staged an violent putsch against the forces that ended monarchy in February of 1917.
    FFS...what do you think Marxism and Leninism was? Hint: It was Communism.



    It was totalitarian from the beginning, in theory and in practice.
    Freeing workers from the monarchy and the bourgeoisie....was totalitarianism? Not at its root, Leninism had some totalitarian characteristics, but Stalinism reflected his paranoia, that was when it became totalitarian.




    Because there's no error. The label "liberal" in application to the Left makes no sense whatsoever, that's the source of confusion.
    No, it is just you that is confused, you keep jumping over the basics ideas (liberalism is a move towards greater freedom of the individual) and associate the absolute worst with liberalism.....and think you have one an argument.

    Again, liberals desire greater freedoms for the individual, specifically from a social aspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  8. #48
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    The notion that left-wing politics versus right-wing politics is determined by the degree of government interference in the economy is a fallacy-- and borderline absurd. Look at American politics, for example. The difference between Conservative and Liberal isn't the degree of interference, but rather the supposed beneficiaries of it.
    Because the "left-wing", statist component is strong on both sides. The "supposed beneficiaries" - that's about slogans and marketing.

  9. #49
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Because the "left-wing", statist component is strong on both sides. The "supposed beneficiaries" - that's about slogans and marketing.
    That I will readily grant you.

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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Much of this ahistorical view of fascism is the fault of Jonah Goldberg's "Liberal Fascism" which has "reopened a debate" that was never actually occurring.

    It's merely another chapter of the Cold War residue. The formula--and this is scarcely a simplification--is: Right-wing = good; Left wing =bad.

    If one holds with enough religious fervour to the correctness of such vapid formulae, then yes, of course the fascists must be "left wing." (I've had debates with folks who insist that the most conservative of arch-conservatives, the theocratic Islamists, are also "left-wingers." )

    Scholars of fascism, while rebutting the simplsitic "left/right paradigm as it pertains to fascism, nevertheless take issue with the notion of its "far left" genesis and directions:

    Roger Griffin's blog: Review: Liberal Fascism

    History News Network

    History News Network


    As the second author here, Matthew Feldman posits that the "debate," if anything, is little more than "a useful barometer of the so-called "culture wars" in the contemporary United States."

    And that's about where this "Fascism is left-wing" notion stands.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

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