View Poll Results: Is fascism left or right wing?

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Thread: Is Fascism Right Wing?

  1. #321
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    You make good points, but we must remember that Modern Leftists are well known for criticizing, with great fervor, traits that their opponents do not possess, and which they are often guilty. (The Soviet Union's government endlessly criticized imperialism while seizing territory and people, for example.) But the one major example of a Fascist government which was a close ally of the German National Socialists, another Leftist entity.
    While the Soviet Union is indeed guilty of such, they are not Modern Leftists, nor are they comparable to the American Left. Secondly, on the American scale the Nazi's would be centrists, and on the German scale they are firmly right-wing.

    Above all, Liberals (Throughout history, from classical to modern Social Democrats) have never really been fascist, at least not in a way that you can clearly define them as such.
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    The American right's denial of their heritage seems to congeal around Jonas Goldberg's 1990's revisionist polemic.
    our heritage?

    No, it's the progressives in this country that don't study their heritage (uncomfortable, you know). Conservatives in this country (the US) have no ideological connection to Fascism, as Progressivism does.

    Our Heritage is Madison and Locke, not Marx and Ratzel.

  3. #323
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Our Heritage is Madison and Locke, not Marx and Ratzel.
    ...and Father Coughlin, and Charles Lindbergh, and Fritz Kuhn. Are you going to airbrush out all the uncomfortable names?
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    It's especially weird that so many righties fail to see that things like Patriot Act, extralegal detentions, starting wars on a wave of nationalism and militarism and public spending on a big military are not exactly "small government" ... yet they keep on claiming that "small government" defines the right.
    Not all right wingers are pro-war. We also believe that the gov't has the right to engage in war in response to a threat to national security. Big and small gov't refers to how much gov't or what part of gov't we interact with regularly. We don't interact with the military regularly, so most people don't consider that a big govt overreach because the govt has not only the right but the duty to do it. Please note that without direct proof of danger, the war doesn't fit the criteria, so it could be argued that Korea and Vietnam were indeed gov't overreaches.

    And most of us consider the Patriot act an unconstitutional overreach. I don't think an American conservative alive would argue that it is right wing.
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    ...and Father Coughlin, and Charles Lindbergh, and Fritz Kuhn. Are you going to airbrush out all the uncomfortable names?
    let's talk about them, then

    Early in his career Coughlin was a vocal supporter of Franklin D. Roosevelt and his early New Deal proposals, before later becoming a harsh critic of Roosevelt as too friendly to bankers.[3] In 1934 he announced a new political organization called the National Union for Social Justice. He wrote a platform calling for monetary reforms, the nationalization of major industries and railroads, and protection of the rights of labor...
    Gosh. Nationalization of major industries and railroads, big on protecting labor, broke off with FDR because FDR was too friendly to bankers. Yeah that sounds really like the intellectual heritage of American conservatives.

    So. What did this individual who was so big on Labor Unions and the Nationalization of big enterprises think about fascists?

    ...After hinting at attacks on Jewish bankers, Coughlin began to use his radio program to issue antisemitic commentary, and later to support at least some of the policies of Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini.[5] The broadcasts have been called "a variation of the Fascist agenda applied to American culture".[6] His chief topics were political and economic rather than religious, with his slogan being Social Justice, first with, and later against, the New Deal....
    Huh. So it turns out that your first cited individual actually makes the argument that fascism was something that appealed to the American left.


    Really, in the sense that we use the terms today (and again, this is where "Liberalism" gets' turned on its' head), there wasn't much of a "conservative" movement in America in the 1930's an 1940's. It was the Progressive Era, and progressive assumptions were largely dominant.

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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    let's talk about them, then



    Gosh. Nationalization of major industries and railroads, big on protecting labor, broke off with FDR because FDR was too friendly to bankers. Yeah that sounds really like the intellectual heritage of American conservatives.

    So. What did this individual who was so big on Labor Unions and the Nationalization of big enterprises think about fascists?



    Huh. So it turns out that your first cited individual actually makes the argument that fascism was something that appealed to the American left.


    Really, in the sense that we use the terms today (and again, this is where "Liberalism" gets' turned on its' head), there wasn't much of a "conservative" movement in America in the 1930's an 1940's. It was the Progressive Era, and progressive assumptions were largely dominant.
    Coughlin, as your wiki quotes confirm, began his activist career as a progressive and then moved to the far right, attempting to take working class supporters with him. I don't think there's a lot of evidence he succeeded in taking the 'American left' with him though.

    Now then, you wanted to talk about Lindbergh and Kuhn too. So...?
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  7. #327
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    While the Soviet Union is indeed guilty of such, they are not Modern Leftists, nor are they comparable to the American Left. Secondly, on the American scale the Nazi's would be centrists, and on the German scale they are firmly right-wing. Above all, Liberals (Throughout history, from classical to modern Social Democrats) have never really been fascist, at least not in a way that you can clearly define them as such.
    I avoid applying the terms "Left" and "Right" much before the advent of the 20th Century, and use "Liberal" and "Conservative" with great caution beyond the same scope, as these terms' meanings drift, sometimes radically over the generations. When engaged in serious conversation with rational people, a I believe I am in this case, I don't actually assign the Nazis to our political spectrum. Rather than a coherent political philosophy, I find it to have been more akin to a cult religion. Accounts of the time tell us that Socialists saw socialist vales in Nazism, traditionalists saw it as a bastion of tradition, and so on. People saw what they needed to see to experience the ecstasy of belonging. In my opinion, both representatives the Modern Left and the Modern right would do well to remember that while many political comparisons to that government are valid, few are precise. Politics as we think of it wasn't so much central to Nazism, as it was a tool of it.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 06-03-13 at 12:12 PM.
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  8. #328
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    I avoid applying the terms "Left" and "Right" much before the advent of the 20th Century, and use "Liberal" and "Conservative" with great caution beyond the same scope, as these terms' meanings drift, sometimes radically over the generations. When engaged in serious conversation with rational people, a I believe I am in this case, I don't actually assign the Nazis to our political spectrum. Rather than a coherent political philosophy, I find it to have been more akin to a cult religion. Accounts of the time tell us that Socialists saw socialist vales in Nazism, traditionalists saw it as a bastion of tradition, and so on. People saw what they needed to see to experience the ecstasy of belonging. In my opinion, both representatives the Modern Left and the Modern right would do well to remember that while many political comparisons to that government are valid, few are precise. Politics as we think of it wasn't so much central to Nazism, as it was a tool of it.
    Okay.
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  9. #329
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    No, it's not OK, nationalism is historically associated with the right, and it's central to the Nazi position. While the movement may seek to promote itself as representing the working man, a "working man" who doesn't closely follow the line will soon find himself in a very uncomfortable place, as will anyone who asserts class or gender or anything else, before Nation. It was utterly antisocialist and antifeminist.
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    No, it's not OK, nationalism is historically associated with the right, and it's central to the Nazi position. While the movement may seek to promote itself as representing the working man, a "working man" who doesn't closely follow the line will soon find himself in a very uncomfortable place, as will anyone who asserts class or gender or anything else, before Nation. It was utterly antisocialist and antifeminist.
    So, you don't think that the Soviets, the Maoists, the North Koreans, The North Vietnamese the French Revolutionaries for that matter, were also nationalist, even though by modern usage, they were all, "left wing"?

    Again, Naziism was a hodge podge politically. As the brighter students will already have long been aware, it embraced universal health care, State subsidized recreation for the laboring classes, education reforms, and environmentalism as central tenants early in its history, and enacted legislation accordingly. These are clearly, again by today's fashionable definitions, were left wing positions.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

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