View Poll Results: Is fascism left or right wing?

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    62 52.10%
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Thread: Is Fascism Right Wing?

  1. #271
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    Like I said before, free market capitalism leads to whatever consumers decide. If they don't want all the wealth in the hands of a few, they diversify the sources of the goods they purchase and give the money to someone else instead. Monopolies are almost always the result of government interference and/or manipulation. Without monopolies, capitalism is whatever consumers decide to make it
    Well, that's a sop to the free market theorists....the problem is, in reality, capitalists work diligently to fight it.

    It's not because they're evil: it's a rational decision about the bottom line.

    So the theory states it's all about "informed consumers making educated choices." What you've said above depends on this theory for its very life.

    But the world of marketing and advertising spends multi-billions of dollars specifically--explicitly--to undermine that very theory. And with great success, I'd argue.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Actually, his now reads 'Conservative.'
    viktyr's? now that's funny.

  3. #273
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    viktyr's? now that's funny.
    It kinda is.
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
    -FDR

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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I've seen too many people using different "versions" of common sense.




    I'm inclined to believe that sometimes, for some people, 'common sense' is whatever works out best for them.

  5. #275
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    Yes, unneccessary. My apologies.
    Your facts are wrong and your analysis is wrong. And then you go back to ad hominems.

    The Nazis started as socialists and showed no inclination to change. Their socialist policies were not shibboleths as you term them but solid policies that they followed through with when the gained power, which is why the remained popular with the German people right up to the very end. They recruited mainly from the German left and were in competition with the communists and other socialists for members, or so Hitler himself claims in his book. Also see Burleigh, M. The Third Reich: A New History (New York, Hill and Wang, 2000) pp 131-133. It is essential to understand this about the Nazis because it explains so much. Attempting to airbrush this out of history as left leaning historians have done is a crime against the truth.

    However, I can accept the idea that the Nazis drew on ideas from both the left and the right to the extent that we characterize militarism, nationalism, and reliance on capitalist economic and manufacturing expertise as right wing. Since the racism came as much from the German left as from anywhere I reject the idea that that is a right wing idea. But the Nazis were very serious about being socialists and proved it by adopting socialist policies as one of the first things they did. And no, they never lost that idea but referred to it as a cornerstone of their ideology and, again, followed through very handsomely with those socialist promises to the people. They criticized both capitalism and communisim but borrowed from both. What stood them apart from both was turning those policies to the service of the state, the nation, the volk, which was embodied by Adolf Hitler.

    What makes me say that fascism is primarily leftist is its reliance on centralized state power, with all hands turned to the service of the state and the state taking care of everyone's needs, controlling everything. And one other thing which is now associated exclusively with the left these days, which is identity politics.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  6. #276
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Your facts are wrong and your analysis is wrong. And then you go back to ad hominems.
    ???

    No I don't. There was the intial one...then my apology...and then none subsequent.

    Quote them.

    Also see Burleigh, M. The Third Reich: A New History (New York, Hill and Wang, 2000) pp 131-133.

    A direct quote woiuld have been helpful, and is de riguer on forums like this one. Nevertheless, I did some searching, read some precises and reviews and an interview. I didn't find what you imply I would (I"m not saying it's not there...I don't know, because you don't offer me direct evidence.) However, I did discover this in one review of the book you cite:

    In the Third Reich, as he makes clear in a chapter entitled '' 'Miss Becker, Your Head Is at Stake, Your Head Is Wobbling,' ''Nazi terror from above and the demise of the rule of law started just a few days after Hitler's assumption of power in January 1933. Thenceforth the penalties of opposition became higher and higher. In the first nine months alone, at least 100,000 people, most of them leftist Germans, were thrown into hastily erected concentration camps. Others ended up in ordinary prisons and many died. Countless more were roughed up by rampaging brownshirts in broad daylight or taken into police custody on trumped-up political charges.
    This rather contradicts what you said earlier..and it is derived from your source.

    It is essential to understand this about the Nazis because it explains so much. Attempting to airbrush this out of history as left leaning historians have done is a crime against the truth.
    Again, if you're claiming (and you are) that almost the entire scholarly history of fascism going back for many decades is false...worse, a "crime against the truth" (and this includes the work of the conservative Raul Hilberg, universally deemed "the father of Holocaust Studies")...it's a n enormous claim.

    You have to provide substantial evidence and serious analysis for such a monumental declaration.


    What makes me say that fascism is primarily leftist is its reliance on centralized state power, with all hands turned to the service of the state and the state taking care of everyone's needs, controlling everything. And one other thing which is now associated exclusively with the left these days, which is identity politics.

    As I pointed out--and which no one has as of yet refuted--right-wing regimes do manifest in centralized state power; Pinochet, as I mentioned, was only able to adhere to the "Washington consensus"--that is, the dictates of his Master--through extreme centralized power. (Murder, torture, state terror are as extreme as statist power can get.) His sometimes lauded (I still can't believe it) adherence to "free market values" was in fact the opposite, as he used state terror and murder to retain the power of the rich elites.

    The same is true for other rightist regimes...Indonesia's Suharto, for example, another great favourite of the West, and responsible for probably more killings than Saddam Hussein.

    The examples are legion.

    As for identity politics: the identity politics of the contemporary Left centre around race, gender, and sexual identity...but are never designed as agencies of superiority, as with the fascists' "identity politics" of race and nation.

    In fact, this is yet another way in which they veer much closer to the right, as the myth demands continual fear and suspicion of the Foeign Other, with militarism deemed the primary way to solve such threats, whether real or imagined.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

  7. #277
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    ???

    No I don't. There was the intial one...then my apology...and then none subsequent.

    Quote them.
    With no foundation whatsoever, you accuse me of not having read any scholarship on the Nazis. Why do you make this assumption? Because you think that if I had read it I wouldn't dare challenge it? How silly. What is there to say about analysis that doesn't comport with the facts? These are supposedly scholars, so where is the scholarship? I read these guys and find gaps about which there are no explanations. Either they are ignorant or, like Noam Chomsky, they are relying on the ignorance of their readers.

    So most of those scholars are remarkably silent on the points I'm making. Like Chomsky, they simply leave out half of the important facts. What more is there to say except, "what about this?" and, "what about this?", and, "what about this?" Most of the time it is simply the characterization of Nazis as right wing without evidence or explanation, which, in the face of the contrary facts I've laid out, is like fingernails on a blackboard. Then there is the attempt to minimize facts that are obviously central to who the Nazis were. Yes, a few conservatives joined them, so all they will talk about is the fact that conservatives joined the Nazis, leaving out the origin of most of the members of that party, how the Nazis started, how they regarded themselves, and what they thought was important. Yes, capitalists cooperated with the Nazis, and so this is all the "scholars" talk about, as if it was capitalists directing the Nazis rather than the other way around, leaving out the fate that awaited the capitalist who refused to cooperate. Then there is the attempt to conflate left wing authoritarians with right wing authoritarians, as if it is nationalism, militarism, and racism that are the only important things about the Nazis.

    A direct quote woiuld have been helpful, and is de riguer on forums like this one. Nevertheless, I did some searching, read some precises and reviews and an interview. I didn't find what you imply I would (I"m not saying it's not there...I don't know, because you don't offer me direct evidence.) However, I did discover this in one review of the book you cite:
    You want me to reproduce 2 pages of text from the book? I can reproduce this much:

    The author relates a story written by Patrick Fermor, a British lad traveling in Europe. Having been invited to crash at a German worker's apartment, Fermor found it stuffed with Hitleriana:

    The walls were covered with flags, photographs, posters, slogans, and emblems. His SA uniforms hung neatly ironed on a hanger ... When I said that it must be rather claustrophobic with all that stuff on the walls he laughed and sat down on the bed and said: "Mensch! You should have seen it last year! You would have laughed! Then it was all red flags, stars, hammers, sickles, pictures of Lenin and Stalin and Workers of the World Unite! ... then, suddenly when Hitler came to power, I understood it was all nonsense and lies. I realized Adolf was the man for me. All of a sudden!" He snapped his fingers in the air. "And here I am!" ... Had a lot of people done the same, then? "Millions! I tell you. I was astonished how easily they all changed sides!"
    (from the previously cited book)

    The argument is straightforward: The claim is made that the Nazis are primarily right wing, yet most of their domestic policies outside of the nationalism, racism, and militarism (all of which Stalin shared to some extent) were not right wing at all but left wing. And these were serious policies that they followed through with all the while that they were in power. Nazis were drawn primarily from German leftists, but that doesn't mean that they didn't suppress other leftists like the communists who didn't join them. (And the reason for that is that the communists were anti-nationalist in Germany and undermined the war effort in WWI. Hitler despised them for that.) The only German right wingers on the scene, the capitalists and aristocrats, were well out of power and those useful to the Nazis were given the choice of cooperating or being hanged in Berlin. Aristocrats had already been stripped of their special privileges, and they further lost even the claim to any kind of prestige in German society under the Nazis. The same leveling of classes was also true vis a vis the capitalists.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  8. #278
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    No im not. Im saying capitalism leads to wealth in the hands of the few then those wealthy will use state forces to protect their wealth via corporatism.
    That wouldn't be possible if the state didn't have favors to sell in the first place. Thus, it is statism that is the problem. In a capitalist system the state doesn't have favors to sell.

  9. #279
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Since the racism came as much from the German left as from anywhere I reject the idea that that is a right wing idea.
    So the idea of individual freedom, the removal of judgement of a human based on race, the liberating of a human, is not from liberal ideology....but from conservative/authoritarian structures?

    Could you back up your claim in any way?

    What makes me say that fascism is primarily leftist is its reliance on centralized state power, with all hands turned to the service of the state and the state taking care of everyone's needs, controlling everything. And one other thing which is now associated exclusively with the left these days, which is identity politics.
    "Hitler and his associates claimed that the nation, or the people, was primary, and that the state was its instrument"
    C. Cohen "Communism, Fascism and Democracy" p. 365
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  10. #280
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    The walls were covered with flags, photographs, posters, slogans, and emblems. His SA uniforms hung neatly ironed on a hanger ... When I said that it must be rather claustrophobic with all that stuff on the walls he laughed and sat down on the bed and said: "Mensch! You should have seen it last year! You would have laughed! Then it was all red flags, stars, hammers, sickles, pictures of Lenin and Stalin and Workers of the World Unite! ... then, suddenly when Hitler came to power, I understood it was all nonsense and lies. I realized Adolf was the man for me. All of a sudden!" He snapped his fingers in the air. "And here I am!" ... Had a lot of people done the same, then? "Millions! I tell you. I was astonished how easily they all changed sides!"
    Ah this explains a lot, this was cited in the neocon Jonah Goldberg's screed "Liberal Fascism". You decided to use the original citation rather than where you really read it. Well done, enough said.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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