View Poll Results: Is fascism left or right wing?

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    28 23.53%
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    62 52.10%
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    20 16.81%
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Thread: Is Fascism Right Wing?

  1. #261
    Educator HumanBeing's Avatar
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Which can be said is an outcome of capitalism which transforms into corporatism.
    Uh, no, representative mass governance doesn't transform into capitalism. Quite the opposite, it suppresses capitalism and gives it a bad name by throwing artificial monopolies at it.

    I'd argue capitalism transforms into whatever consumers choose if it's taking place in a voluntary free market economy, but that's just my opinion.

  2. #262
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Gratuitous ad hominem noted.
    Yes, unneccessary. My apologies.



    Mussolini also continued to call himself a socialist.
    No..he originally did. He changed. Radically.

    Hilter called himself a centrist.
    And as I've pointed out, there is a school of respected thought which maintains that fascism was centrist, albeit extremist. (The two terms are not exclusive to one another)

    So much for cherry picking quotes.

    You made the claim that fascism's right-wing character was specifically and solely a result of Stalinist propaganda. Presumably you got this from somewhere (though you have yet to back it up)...which means you ignored other salient quotes...like the ones that predated what you claim Stalin invented. So much for cherry-picking.


    The important thing is the policies advocated.

    Right. A mixture of right and left, to simplify slightly...a point made again and again, but which you refuse to countenance.


    No, this was pretty much a main theme of Stalinist propaganda.
    No, as objectively demonstrated, Stalin did not come up with the notion of fascists as "right wing," which was your direct claim. The fascists and their intellectual supporters did.


    Also, more to the right or tending to the right isn't the same thing as being on the right. Yes Nazis were more to the right than Communists, but they were still on the left.
    You keep saying it, but offer no evidence, except a litany of No True Scotsman fallacies.


    Some of us are making the case that these authorities are wrong in their assessments, and we have said why. To just go back and appeal to those authorities is bogus.
    The virtual consensus view by serious scholars who have been working on this subject for decades is not absolute proof, I agree; but it's monumentally more than you have offered.

    Also, you don't summon and then refute a single point they have made. Did you even read them? Or is your mind made up?



    Also, it's completely false that Nazis were drawn from the right. They came from the German left!

    Wrong. They came from every point...and the capitalist class were only opposed to him in the beginning, with his inclusive "socialist" rhetoric. Once they realized that he was abolishing unions (a conservative favourite, even now) and was profoundly business-friendly, they eagerly joined ranks. Religious conservatives were happily aligned. Of course, leftists were too, initially....until they bercame the mortal enemy...domestically, I mean, not just with the Soviet situation.

    Hitler started in the German Worker's Party which became the National Socialist Workers Party (there are some subtle clues in those names concerning the political ideologies of these organizations)
    Right...like The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea.

    .
    Only a few conservatives joined them,

    Where in the world do you get this stuff? you're going to have to source it.


    No thanks, were not talking about neo-Nazis and anyone who writes about them should know that they are not the same as Nazis. Unlike the real Nazis, neo-Nazis don't seem to have any policies other than "get rid of all the non-Whites and gays and everything will be fine."
    I'm not arguing that they're not inclined to simpleton's hate. I'm saying that they are broadly conservative....even as they presumably support a few lefty shibboleths, as fascists and their offshoots always do.

    And because that's part of the nature of fascists, you choose to latch onto one aspect and ignore the other. Why?

    Like many consensus views the view that Nazis were on the right is simply wrong. Anyone who examines the question fairly can see it.

    You're dismissing a lot of scholarship--all of it "unfair," a view approaching conspiracy theory. And yet, I daresay you haven't even read, much less thought seriously about any of it.

    And you're so far not offering any sources whatsoever....even though you've plainly read some things, as you are not simply reciting your own insights. (I know...because I've had precisely this debate with others, who also tend to be remiss about stating from where they got their information.)


    Leftists recoil from the idea that the Nazis were on the left,
    Uh, so do the right-wingers who make the argument you're making.


    But there's a distinction: I offer the uncontroversial, easily-demonstrated view that fascism indeed was made up of leftist politics, in concert with its rightwing politics.

    You grant no such leeway.

    So I think your recoil is sharper and more reflexive on this matter than is my own.
    Last edited by Strucker; 05-23-13 at 03:44 PM.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

  3. #263
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    Uh, no, representative mass governance doesn't transform into capitalism. Quite the opposite, it suppresses capitalism and gives it a bad name by throwing artificial monopolies at it.

    I'd argue capitalism transforms into whatever consumers choose if it's taking place in a voluntary free market economy, but that's just my opinion.
    I was saying capitalism transforms into corporatism over time.


  4. #264
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Which can be said is an outcome of capitalism which transforms into corporatism.
    Wrong, statism is a central requirement of corporatism, not capitalism. Capitalism and corporatism are mutually exclusive. The more you have of one the less you have of the other.

  5. #265
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I was saying capitalism transforms into corporatism over time.
    You are confusing capitalism with statism. It's a common mistake.

  6. #266
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quik View Post
    You are confusing capitalism with statism. It's a common mistake.
    No im not. Im saying capitalism leads to wealth in the hands of the few then those wealthy will use state forces to protect their wealth via corporatism.


  7. #267
    Educator HumanBeing's Avatar
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    No im not. Im saying capitalism leads to wealth in the hands of the few then those wealthy will use state forces to protect their wealth via corporatism.
    Free market capitalism and statism are mutually exclusive. You can't have free market capitalism in the same economy as state monopoly on education, currency, use of force, healthcare etc. By definition, these artificial monopolies exclude the possibility of a free market.

  8. #268
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    Free market capitalism and statism are mutually exclusive. You can't have free market capitalism in the same economy as state monopoly on education, currency, use of force, healthcare etc. By definition, these artificial monopolies exclude the possibility of a free market.
    Im not saying free market capitalism exist at the same time im saying free market capitalism LEADS to corporatism.


  9. #269
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Im not saying free market capitalism exist at the same time im saying free market capitalism LEADS to corporatism.
    Hmm, interesting.

    Presumably none of the corporatist entities started that way; most started as competitive, entrepreneurial capitalists.

    But few people despise free markets more than successful capitalists.

    As Canadian billionaire Kevin O'Leary said: "I'd be a commie if I could make a buck at it."
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

  10. #270
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Im not saying free market capitalism exist at the same time im saying free market capitalism LEADS to corporatism.
    Like I said before, free market capitalism leads to whatever consumers decide. If they don't want all the wealth in the hands of a few, they diversify the sources of the goods they purchase and give the money to someone else instead. Monopolies are almost always the result of government interference and/or manipulation. Without monopolies, capitalism is whatever consumers decide to make it

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