View Poll Results: Is fascism left or right wing?

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Thread: Is Fascism Right Wing?

  1. #251
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    And finally, when you get to a certain level of extremism, they're all pretty much the same thing. They may differ in their theoretical doctrine, but not as much as they would pretend, and the real-world results are usually pretty much the same.
    Yes.

    The sematic battles we fight here is one thing. The reality of someone ending an innocent life - for whatever bleeping idiotic "right", "left", or "diagonal-in-the-sixteenth-dimension" reasons - that is something else entirely.

    How about a million lives, a hundred million? At this point, our comprehension fails. We cannot even visualize (most of us) a million as a palpable quantity. A million human lives snuffed for no reason other than some wild ideological or economical speculation? Impossible. Could not have happened.

    Right...

  2. #252
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoC_T View Post
    You'll forgive my sarcasm, Cyrylek. I indulge it in good faith.
    Sarcasm is an aristocratic trait. This doesn't imply any kind of approval or acceptance, but...there's no such thing as a sarcastic Communist or Nazi true believer...

  3. #253
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Sarcasm is an aristocratic trait. This doesn't imply any kind of approval or acceptance, but...there's no such thing as a sarcastic Communist or Nazi true believer...
    I consider that a profound compliment for several reasons. Cheers.

  4. #254
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    So what are you claiming that Pinochet represents?

    Right-wing, violent statism...government intrusion, which you wildly claimed was not part of the political right.


    I was responding directly to your post:

    he one side you have an ideology that advocates central control of the economy and the monitary system, government health care, cradle to grave welfare, guaranteed employment, abolition of class differences, high and progressive taxation, and seizure and redistribution of land and wealth.

    On the other side you have an ideology that advocates a free market with a minimum of government involement, a gold standard, no government involement in industry beyond policing, private charity, low taxes, respect of traditional class divisions, and respect and protection of private property.

    There is simply no question that fascism belongs in the first classification above. To which do leftist ideologies belong?

    All else is meaningless as ideologies only have meaning in terms of the policies they inspire and justify.
    You've laid out two "sides"...far too simplisitically (with some outright errors...notably, "a free market with a minimum of government involvement").

    So I simultaneously disagreed with this assessment...but agreed with your final statement, which suggests that ideologies' meanings can only be ascertained by what they do, in the real world....not by the theorizing of what they are in political fantasy, as in the first part of your post.

    In other words, your final (correct) statement flatly contradicts the rest of your post.

    Because Pinochet--like all right-wing authoritarians--led extreme involvement in the "free market" [sic].

    Murdering your leftist foes, imprisoning and torturing union leaders, killing peasants who demand more socialist-leaning policies (mostly mild, North-American style reforms, not Soviet communism)....is "government involvement in the 'free market."

    You can't have more government involvement than using terror and murder to eliminate your political foes for the sake of the country's wealthy.

    That's big Government statism. Very serious statism.

    And of course leftwing tyrannical regimes have behaved similarly...many of them worse, in fact.

    But my point is that the distinctions you draw are far from clear, and are the elevation of political-Economy theory over the objective reality.

    All we have to do is experiment with your final sentence, see how it applies to various governments, to discover this.


    Pinochet more closely resembled populist dictators like Saddam Hussein and Ferdinand Marcos.
    I'm inclined to agree, and this unfortunately explains not only the support, but the deep fondness he inspired among so many Western leaders and "free market" intellectuals like Hayek and Friedman.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

  5. #255
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    Right-wing, violent statism...government intrusion, which you wildly claimed was not part of the political right.


    I was responding directly to your post:



    You've laid out two "sides"...far too simplisitically (with some outright errors...notably, "a free market with a minimum of government involvement").

    So I simultaneously disagreed with this assessment...but agreed with your final statement, which suggests that ideologies' meanings can only be ascertained by what they do, in the real world....not by the theorizing of what they are in political fantasy, as in the first part of your post.

    In other words, your final (correct) statement flatly contradicts the rest of your post.

    Because Pinochet--like all right-wing authoritarians--led extreme involvement in the "free market" [sic].

    Murdering your leftist foes, imprisoning and torturing union leaders, killing peasants who demand more socialist-leaning policies (mostly mild, North-American style reforms, not Soviet communism)....is "government involvement in the 'free market."

    You can't have more government involvement than using terror and murder to eliminate your political foes for the sake of the country's wealthy.

    That's big Government statism. Very serious statism.

    And of course leftwing tyrannical regimes have behaved similarly...many of them worse, in fact.

    But my point is that the distinctions you draw are far from clear, and are the elevation of political-Economy theory over the objective reality.

    All we have to do is experiment with your final sentence, see how it applies to various governments, to discover this.




    I'm inclined to agree, and this unfortunately explains not only the support, but the deep fondness he inspired among so many Western leaders and "free market" intellectuals like Hayek and Friedman.

    This thread is about fascism and whether it is a leftist or rightist ideology. Ever since Stalin attempted to distance himself from fascism by calling it right wing scholars have characterized it that way, but to this day that remains nothing more than false Stalinist propaganda.

    Pinocet was nothing like either Italian or German fascism except for the authoritarianism and militarism. The parallels between fascism and leftism remain the most compelling even if there are dictators and tyrants in the world who have embraced traditionally right wing policies. Regardless of what leftists always said their intentions were, all leftist governments were authoritarian and militaristic just like any other oligarchic and non-democratic government, so we have to look at their other policies to distinguish between them, fascism, and right wing authoritarians. When we do that there is no question that fascism is a lot closer to the left.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  6. #256
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    This thread is about fascism and whether it is a leftist or rightist ideology. Ever since Stalin attempted to distance himself from fascism by calling it right wing scholars have characterized it that way, but to this day that remains nothing more than false Stalinist propaganda.

    Wow. You read some anti-left screed on the internet and internalized it, in a typical formulation.


    Fascism was deemed of the political Right, first by the Doctrine of Fascism:

    "We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right,' a fascist century.
    And then by Mussolini, who, although he thought the traditional political positioning was ultimately not of the utmost importance, stated:

    Fascism, sitting on the right, could also have sat on the mountain of the center
    Whatever one thinks of the self-assessments, they were not Stalin's doing. Stalin was only agreeing with the fascists themselves.


    In fact, scholars of fascism mostly consider it to have been a heady combination of left and right...and some view it as a kind of "radical centrism." (For the record, I do think that self-described "centrists" get off way too easy in discussions of political extremism.)

    I have cited some of these scholars, none of whom appears obviously far to the left to my knowledge, and have done so again, here, below.

    Even for those hold to the "left/right combination" view, which is probably quite accurate, they aver that is remains a mostly right-wing phenomenon...by virtue of its often quite extreme social conservatism...and by the fact that the overwhelming majority of people drawn to fascism come to it from a predisposed stance on the political right.

    (Read the Stromfront forum with its jew-hating and black-hating vomit expunged....and you will find pretty typical and ordinary conservative talking points throughout.)


    Pinocet was nothing like either Italian or German fascism except for the authoritarianism and militarism.
    I didn't say he was a fascist. I was responding directly to a claim about what "left" and "right" governments entail, and how they behave. I showed that Pinochet, like many other right-wing leaders (most obviously, though not restricted to, the southern regions), simply do not fit the mold of what Left and Right governments are, and what they do.


    Here are the citations I mentioned. A small sampling, but you'll find the scholarship extrapolates generally. These fellwos were explciitly responding to Jonah Goldberg's "Liberal Fascism" thesis, but again, what they cover spokes out into your claims as well. (In fact, the very reason you're holding the views you are is an indirect result of Goldberg's very poorly-received book, whether you're aware of it or not. "Internet memes," as they say.)


    This absorption of the "liberal fascism" thesis dangerously distorts the public discourse precisely because, like so many other components of right-wing belief systems, it’s fundamentally untrue. As the four essays that follow make thoroughly clear, the historical record itself unequivocally repudiates Goldberg's thesis. As such, Liberal Fascism has distorted and polluted the public’s understanding of the nature of fascism, nearly to the point of rendering the word essentially meaningless.
    http://www.hnn.us/articles/122469.html


    Once in power, the two fascist chieftains worked out a fruitful if sometimes contentious relationship with business. German business had been, as Goldberg correctly notes, distrustful of the early Hitler’s populist rhetoric. Hitler was certainly not their first choice as head of state, and many of them preferred a trading economy to an autarkic one. Given their real-life options in 1933, however, the Nazi regulated economy seemed a lesser evil than the economic depression and worker intransigence they had known under Weimar. They were delighted with Hitler’s abolition of independent labor unions and the right to strike (unmentioned by Goldberg), and profited greatly from his rearmament drive. All of them would have found ludicrous the notion that the Nazis, once in power, were on the left. So would the socialist and communist leaders who were the first inhabitants of the Nazi concentration camps.

    http://www.hnn.us/articles/122231.html

    the core of the partial new consensus that has emerged since 1991 (partly, but only partly, as a result of my work in this field) is not that fascism was mainly right wing or left wing, but that it was and remains a revolutionary form of racism/nationalism, one whose sworn enemies include Soviet communism, pluralist liberal democracy and the multi-cultural, multi-faith society celebrated by ‘progressive liberals’.
    http://www.hnn.us/articles/122473.html
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

  7. #257
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    This thread is about fascism and whether it is a leftist or rightist ideology. Ever since Stalin attempted to distance himself from fascism by calling it right wing scholars have characterized it that way, but to this day that remains nothing more than false Stalinist propaganda.

    Wow. You read some anti-left screed on the internet and internalized it, in a typical formulation.


    Fascism was deemed of the political Right, first by the Doctrine of Fascism:

    "We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right,' a fascist century.
    And then by Mussolini, who, although he thought the traditional political positioning was ultimately not of the utmost importance, stated:

    Fascism, sitting on the right, could also have sat on the mountain of the center
    Whatever one thinks of the self-assessments, they were not Stalin's doing. Stalin was only agreeing with the fascists themselves.


    In fact, scholars of fascism mostly consider it to have been a heady combination of left and right...and some view it as a kind of "radical centrism." (For the record, I do think that self-described "centrists" get off way too easy in discussions of political extremism.)

    I have cited some of these scholars, none of whom appears obviously far to the left to my knowledge, and have done so again, here, below.

    Even for those hold to the "left/right combination" view, which is probably quite accurate, they aver that is remains a mostly right-wing phenomenon...by virtue of its often quite extreme social conservatism...and by the fact that the overwhelming majority of people drawn to fascism come to it from a predisposed stance on the political right.

    (Read the Stromfront forum with its jew-hating and black-hating vomit expunged....and you will find pretty typical and ordinary conservative talking points throughout.)


    Pinocet was nothing like either Italian or German fascism except for the authoritarianism and militarism.
    I didn't say he was a fascist. I was responding directly to a claim about what "left" and "right" governments entail, and how they behave. I showed that Pinochet, like many other right-wing leaders (most obviously, though not restricted to, the southern regions), simply do not fit the mold of what Left and Right governments are, and what they do.


    Here are the citations I mentioned. A small sampling, but you'll find the scholarship extrapolates generally. These fellwos were explciitly responding to Jonah Goldberg's "Liberal Fascism" thesis, but again, what they cover spokes out into your claims as well. (In fact, the very reason you're holding the views you are is an indirect result of Goldberg's very poorly-received book, whether you're aware of it or not. "Internet memes," as they say.)


    This absorption of the "liberal fascism" thesis dangerously distorts the public discourse precisely because, like so many other components of right-wing belief systems, it’s fundamentally untrue. As the four essays that follow make thoroughly clear, the historical record itself unequivocally repudiates Goldberg's thesis. As such, Liberal Fascism has distorted and polluted the public’s understanding of the nature of fascism, nearly to the point of rendering the word essentially meaningless.
    http://www.hnn.us/articles/122469.html


    Once in power, the two fascist chieftains worked out a fruitful if sometimes contentious relationship with business. German business had been, as Goldberg correctly notes, distrustful of the early Hitler’s populist rhetoric. Hitler was certainly not their first choice as head of state, and many of them preferred a trading economy to an autarkic one. Given their real-life options in 1933, however, the Nazi regulated economy seemed a lesser evil than the economic depression and worker intransigence they had known under Weimar. They were delighted with Hitler’s abolition of independent labor unions and the right to strike (unmentioned by Goldberg), and profited greatly from his rearmament drive. All of them would have found ludicrous the notion that the Nazis, once in power, were on the left. So would the socialist and communist leaders who were the first inhabitants of the Nazi concentration camps.

    http://www.hnn.us/articles/122231.html

    the core of the partial new consensus that has emerged since 1991 (partly, but only partly, as a result of my work in this field) is not that fascism was mainly right wing or left wing, but that it was and remains a revolutionary form of racism/nationalism, one whose sworn enemies include Soviet communism, pluralist liberal democracy and the multi-cultural, multi-faith society celebrated by ‘progressive liberals’.
    http://www.hnn.us/articles/122473.html
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

  8. #258
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    he one poster on these forums honest enough to identify himself as a fascist is pretty much clear on this point - which is why his actual identifier reads "progressive".
    Actually, his now reads 'Conservative.'
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
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  9. #259
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    Wow. You read some anti-left screed on the internet and internalized it, in a typical formulation.
    Gratuitous ad hominem noted.


    Fascism was deemed of the political Right, first by the Doctrine of Fascism.
    Mussolini also continued to call himself a socialist. Hilter called himself a centrist. So much for cherry picking quotes. The important thing is the policies advocated.

    Whatever one thinks of the self-assessments, they were not Stalin's doing. Stalin was only agreeing with the fascists themselves.
    No, this was pretty much a main theme of Stalinist propaganda. Hitler didn't agree with it, claiming he was in the political center. Also, more to the right or tending to the right isn't the same thing as being on the right. Yes Nazis were more to the right than Communists, but they were still on the left.

    I have cited some of these scholars, none of whom appears obviously far to the left to my knowledge, and have done so again, here, below.
    Some of us are making the case that these authorities are wrong in their assessments, and we have said why. To just go back and appeal to those authorities is bogus.

    Even for those hold to the "left/right combination" view, which is probably quite accurate, they aver that is remains a mostly right-wing phenomenon...by virtue of its often quite extreme social conservatism...and by the fact that the overwhelming majority of people drawn to fascism come to it from a predisposed stance on the political right.
    Extreme social conservatism? What about cradle to grave welfare, socialized medicine, guaranteed employment, abolition of class differences, etc., is conservative? Also, it's completely false that Nazis were drawn from the right. They came from the German left! Hitler started in the German Worker's Party which became the National Socialist Workers Party (there are some subtle clues in those names concerning the political ideologies of these organizations). Only a few conservatives joined them, and the aristocrats in particular were a center of opposition to Hitler. Many of them were hanged in Plötzensee Prison.

    (Read the Stromfront forum with its jew-hating and black-hating vomit expunged....and you will find pretty typical and ordinary conservative talking points throughout.)
    No thanks, were not talking about neo-Nazis and anyone who writes about them should know that they are not the same as Nazis. Unlike the real Nazis, neo-Nazis don't seem to have any policies other than "get rid of all the non-Whites and gays and everything will be fine."

    Like many consensus views the view that Nazis were on the right is simply wrong. Anyone who examines the question fairly can see it. Leftists recoil from the idea that the Nazis were on the left, but they recoil from just about every instance of left wing politics that has actually become manifest, too -- Stalinism, Maoism, etc. etc., so it's not unusual. They will go on and on about why Stalinism wasn't real communism, why the Communist Chinese were never really communists, and so on. It seems to be a characteristic of the ideology to love the dream of utopia and despise the concrete attempts made to achieve it.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  10. #260
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    No, that's the logical outcome of representative governance and the artificial monopolies it brings.
    Which can be said is an outcome of capitalism which transforms into corporatism.


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