View Poll Results: Is fascism left or right wing?

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  • Left

    28 23.53%
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    62 52.10%
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    20 16.81%
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    9 7.56%
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Thread: Is Fascism Right Wing?

  1. #221
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    Except that the Right espouses individual liberty and the Left doesn't.
    Not the Fascist/theocratic right.

  2. #222
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quik View Post
    Fascism is statism, they are the same thing. Both left and right are statists.
    When I saw this thread, that was my reaction. Thank you for saving me the trouble of responding.

  3. #223
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    Exactly one of the points I"ve been making...and which no one will even countenance, much less respond. So it's gratifying that you hold to a similar viewpoint.

    That said, again, we can take a regime that is more or less universally considered of the political Right (and even admired by some, to their shame): Pinochet.

    "The policies [he] inspire[d] and justif[ied]" were quite obviously of statist repression and authoritarianism. Whatever brutally cold illogic that Hayek, Thatcher and some Chicago-School acolytes might summon in his defense, he wasn't even supportive of "free markets": repressing people who disagree is by definition government intrusion into those markets.

    So the political right, in this case (and far from the only case, notably throughout Central and South America throughout much of the 20th century) was certainly not concerned about freedom...except of course for oligarchs, who were the "natural rulers."

    So yes, "respect for traditional class divisions" was unquestionably a hallmark of the right-wing state terror. This should be a condemnation, not an accolade.

    But minimum government involvement? Nope.

    As you say, ideologies' meaning is delineated by behaviour, not by claims...certainly not the claims made on this thread, which elevate the ideals as more real than reality...a stance that takes some discipline to maintain.
    So what are you claiming that Pinochet represents? He's not fascist. Too many elements of fascism are missing from his regime. There's no welfare, there's no redistribution of land, there's no government health care, there's no effort to abolish class differences, he did not maintain labor unions but abolished them, and the government didn't attempt to control private businesses but instead supported neoliberal economic policies, almost the exact opposite of fascism. He certainly was authoritarian.

    Pinochet more closely resembled populist dictators like Saddam Hussein and Ferdinand Marcos.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  4. #224
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Again, the only difference between US conservatives and most fascists is the marginal difference in social freedoms, and as I said, there are lots of cons promoting the restrictions of social freedoms on groups outside of theirs. Bircherism is alive and well within the US right wing, Palin and the tea bags are just a few steps away from Stormfront.
    Conservatism could not be any more different from fascism. Conservatives don't support any of the government policies that fascists advocated, which includes high and progressive taxation, an all powerful central government in control of the economy and the monetary system, government health care, cradle to grave welfare, central control of unions, redistribution of land, and abolishing class distinctions. Not even if you consider social conservative policies do you even get close to fascism. In fascism children were educated and indoctrinated by the state, similar to communist education. Devotion to the state replaced religious devotion.

    Any group advocating policies that say "no" to what the little boys and girls of the left want to do when they want to do it is called fascist. It's puerile and ignorant.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  5. #225
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Make it 4 or 5, whatever.

    But the govts current owners will never allow the libertarian govt they have convinced you is ideal.
    If we had a libertarian government then there would be no government favors to sell in the first place. Statism is a central requirement of corporatism. You can't have corporatism without statism.

  6. #226
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quik View Post
    If we had a libertarian government then there would be no government favors to sell in the first place. Statism is a central requirement of corporatism. You can't have corporatism without statism.
    How do you get to a libertarian govt from here?

    Answer the damn question.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  7. #227
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    How do you get to a libertarian govt from here?

    Answer the damn question.
    Lew Rockwells 30 day plan should suffice. My order would be a bit different.

    I would first end all wars that America is currently involved in and bring all the troops home. Then I would slash all Department budgets by 50% for the first year. Remedial reading/writing classes would be set up for all the former bureaucrats who lost their jobs. This 50% slash would continue every year for 10 years.

  8. #228
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quik View Post
    Lew Rockwells 30 day plan should suffice. My order would be a bit different.

    I would first end all wars that America is currently involved in and bring all the troops home. Then I would slash all Department budgets by 50% for the first year. Remedial reading/writing classes would be set up for all the former bureaucrats who lost their jobs. This 50% slash would continue every year for 10 years.
    And who is going to actually DO these things?

    Our govts sponsors like things the way they are, they aren't going to pay for any campaigns for those who will upset the applecart. What they will.do is drown libertarian upstarts in cash and opposition research, or trick you guys with a bait and switch.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  9. #229
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    And who is going to actually DO these things?

    Our govts sponsors like things the way they are, they aren't going to pay for any campaigns for those who will upset the applecart. What they will.do is drown libertarian upstarts in cash and opposition research, or trick you guys with a bait and switch.
    I don't believe in using the political system. I saw what happened when liberty-minded folks tried. Ron Pauls campaign was a disaster. They will never allow someone like him to upset the established order.

    Counter-economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Silk Road (marketplace) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    3D printing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Black market - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Illegal drug trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I believe in counter economics. It's the best form of resistance and the safest. Individuals are free to pick and choose when and where to resist. Whether that means printing something the government says you can't print or smoking something the government says you can't smoke, or owning something the government says you can't own. The best thing is that the government can't monitor you 24/7 and so when and where you choose to resist and undermine the authority of the government is totally up to you. It's very liberating. It's like speeding or running a red light when nobody is on the road.

  10. #230
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    According to Konkin's pamphlet Counter-Economics:
    The Counter-Economy is the sum of all non-aggressive Human Action which is forbidden by the State. Counter-economics is the study of the Counter-Economy and its practices. The Counter-Economy includes the free market, the Black Market, the “underground economy,” all acts of civil and social disobedience, all acts of forbidden association (sexual, racial, cross-religious), and anything else the State, at any place or time, chooses to prohibit, control, regulate, tax, or tariff. The Counter-Economy excludes all State-approved action (the “White Market”) and the Red Market (violence and theft not approved by the State).[3]
    According to Konkin, counter-economics also allows for immediate self-liberation from statist controls, to whatever degree practical, by applying entrepreneurial logic to rationally decide which laws to discreetly break and when. The fundamental principle is to trade risk for profit, although profit can refer to any gain in perceived value rather than strictly monetary gains (as a consequence of the subjective theory of value).
    Voluntary practices of counter-economics include:[4]
    Arms trafficking
    Bartering and alternative currency use
    Being or hiring illegal immigrants
    Drug trafficking
    Smuggling
    Subsistence farming
    Tax evasion
    This is a good summary.

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