View Poll Results: Is fascism left or right wing?

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  • Left

    28 23.53%
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    62 52.10%
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    20 16.81%
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    9 7.56%
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Thread: Is Fascism Right Wing?

  1. #171
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 274ina View Post
    If a Nazi even talked with a Communist, they would have been beaten up and run out.
    .
    Ribbentrop was not beaten up and run out after signing agreements with the Stalinists and designing a plan for joint attack on the countries of Eastern Europe.

    Of course, regimes like those two turn onto each other sooner or later: there can be only one absolute master. But the same is true for the internal power struggles within the certified Communist camp: Stalin murdered Trotsky and his surrounding; the Soviets and the Maoists became bitter enemies; the Khmer Rouge was eventually taken out (thank god for the lesser evils) by the Vietnamese Communists...

  2. #172
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    The problem, in either case is extremism, blind and stupid as it is....faith in things which do not even exist.

  3. #173
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    But the American left at least believes that the government's role is, among other things, to protect minorities from private oppression.
    If you deny the anti-immigrant - neo-Malthusian and/or unionist - groups the "left" designation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    Whereas fascists' goals, like the Nazis, for example, are often to have the government oppress and murder minorities. So in that way they are very very different..
    But very, very similar - in practice, if not in sloganeering - to the Soviet-style Communists, who specifically targeted and massacred Kalymks, Chechens, Kazakhs, Poles, Ukraininans, and so on, and so on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    Social conservatives are the closest we have to fascists in this country, because they believe in broad government power to advance their social goals.
    You could also say that they are "the closest to Communists", for the same reason. Hell, under Stalin, abortion was illegal, homosexuality was a felony (10 years in gulag, for just being gay), most any imaginable ban or prohibition was in place....

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    I think certain liberals might fall into the category as well
    I don't think any of them do - whether we are using the term properly, as in "classical liberal, libertarian", or to describe the moderate, democratic socialists, as it is usually used in America. In the latter case, you may say that they are "left of the center", because of their statist positions on certain economic issues, but they are miles and miles away from the Far Left, such as Communists, Nazis or Fascists.

  4. #174
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Definitions vary.
    Not really. Fascism is well understood to be generally hostile to left wing principles.

  5. #175
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    That doesn't mean that Nazis are leftist.

    Rather, it means that Stalinists are rightist.
    Considering that the Soviet Communism and metastases had conquered half of the world and defined the content of ideological struggles for a century, who is a "true leftist" then? Two dudes in Amherst, Massachusetts smoking dope and quoting Proudhon to each other?

  6. #176
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Considering that the Soviet Communism and metastases had conquered half of the world and defined the content of ideological struggles for a century, who is a "true leftist" then? Two dudes in Amherst, Massachusetts smoking dope and quoting Proudhon to each other?
    Since Soviet Communism, by your own admission, devolved into totalitarianism, I have no idea why you keep pointing to it as representative of left/liberalism. 2 guys smoking weed in Amherst are certainly not equivalent to Stalin. If anything they are anarchists, much closer to your "libertarianism".
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 05-22-13 at 01:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  7. #177
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Well there we are again, not only do you have your own vocabulary, but your own alternative history where the Bolsheviks did not split from the Mensheviks in 03 and were not the the "majority" in name or number.
    You claim that the Communists (Bolsheviks) were the force behind the February Revolution. There were not. The imaginary chain of events is yours, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    The years of Lenin were occupied by 6 years of civil war in defeating the Whites,.
    Translation: 6 years suppressing resistance to his brutal totalitarian regime - the "Whites" being conservatives, liberals, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks, and just plain anyone with an ounce of conscience and humanity left.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    once Stalin took over in 22 he tossed out Lenin's New Economic Policy.
    Not true. The NEP continued until 1929, and Stalin was a huge proponent of the NEP, as a tactical, temporary move - in contrast to some resistance from the less pragmatic Trotsky. From contemporary writings of Lenin, it is 100% clear that the "Stalinist" collectivization and industrialization was the eventual goal.

    By the way, the NEP, with the State controlling everything but allowing a good deal of private and cooperative business activities is very similar to the economic setups of the Fascist and Nazi polities. And the convergence continued, when the Nazis had declared their Four-Year Plan and made Goering an economic dictator in 1938. We will never know, but the mixed socialist economy ("military Keynesianism") of the early Nazi period could have been just a phase, like the NEP, on the way to the Soviet-style State domination.

  8. #178
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You can hijack the term "libertarian" and apply it to your brand of Classic Liberalism.
    I don't hijack anything. The term "liberal" was hijacked by the American social democrats. We were sort of edited out of existence. Yes, "libertarian" sounds awkward, and immediately suggests some kind of dogmatic radicalism, but that's what we are stuck with.
    The liberals of continental Europe, like the members German FDP or Polish OP call themselves libertarian when talking to Americans, to avoid any misunderstanding.

  9. #179
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    I just have to rip this apart, it is too rich in your mixed up definitions
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Definitions vary.
    In my book, "the Left" means "proponents of government control over economic activities and society at large".
    Wrong, left/liberals are for great social freedom and restrictions on total free markets.

    The Stalinists being the ultimate "far Left": using our weird contemporary language, "extremely liberal economically, extremely conservative socially".
    How in the world do Communists, particularly Stalinists, get described as "economically liberal"? They wanted total control of all economic conditions, no private profiting, no free market. Stalinists were totalitarian.


    The Nazis were a bit milder on the economic side, and the Fascists substantially less aggressive on both counts, but all three ideologies sit squarely in the "advanced Left" corner.
    If the Nazi's were more open economically, yet still as restrictive on social matters as Stalinists, that shifts them to the right.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  10. #180
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Maybe you can get on the same page with us and examine the "political compass" above....
    I object to some "zone markings" there, but you should notice the world "neoliberalism" hovering over the "libertarian" tip, on the left. That's how the European socialists call classical liberals/libertarians, with the implied "Oh no, we thought you are dead and buried!"

    The Stalinists will be at the bottom of the chart, where personal and economic freedoms come to the minimum. The Nazis a tad higher, to the right; the Fascists still a little higher, by both measures. But all three clustered together neatly. I call this zone "far left", you can call it something else.

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