View Poll Results: Is fascism left or right wing?

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Thread: Is Fascism Right Wing?

  1. #131
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    I do. Totally. May I now continue to think of myself as (1) far right wing, (2) real (classical) liberal (aka libertarian), and (3) a consistent opponent of the extreme far-left ideologies, such as Communism, Nazism and Fascism?
    Whatever suits you, obviously.

    But I don't see why you should give the political Right a pass...by insisting that when conservatives behave in authoritarian ways (as they virtually always do, when in power)...that it's...the Left!...that is actually to blame.

    The tautology is pitch-perfect, and lunatic.


    This either

    1. denies the possibility of "personal responsibility," a terrific mantra but total pretence among much of the political Right;

    or

    2. Is declaring that "such conservatives are not behaving as conservatives, but as Leftists."


    Aside from its obvious No True Scotsman error, it falters; because, of course, all conservatives, in power, behave at least in part in authoritarian ways.

    It's as if I were to say that sexist lefties--who are legion, which I presume you find unsurprising--are not really lefties at all. After all (and I realize I'm rather provincializing the grander political theories to which you refer...but the principles remain intact)...virtually every lefty believes in a predictably, nominally non-sexist worldview. Almost without exception.

    Therefore, any lefty who exhibits retrograde sexist behaviour...is actually...a conservative!

    I don't buy it.

    I don't buy any of the ideological pissing contests that declare any "side" inherently good on an intellectual and moral level.

    Aside from its extreme ahistoricism, it's also a repudiation of humanity, who simply have not achieved some "perfection of idea" in a political and economic sphere.

    How can we even countenance such hubris? God knows.

    Plus, its essentially just masturbation...and since so much is available for just that purpose, I see no reason to bring it into discussions like this.
    Last edited by Strucker; 05-22-13 at 07:58 AM.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

  2. #132
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Keep telling yourself that.
    Hey, what do I know? I am just an ethnic Pole, born and raised in the USSR, to parents who lost almost all their relatives to the twin plagues of the 20th century.

    Someone who had enjoyed all the benefits of the fat and happy Anglo-Saxon capitalist societies - including the undisputed right to bite the hand that feeds you - of course he knows better! He is much more, er, objective...

  3. #133
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Hey, what do I know? I am just an ethnic Pole, born and raised in the USSR, to parents who lost almost all their relatives to the twin plagues of the 20th century.
    With all that, and you think the only philosophical differences between Nazism and Socialism is Jews?
    So follow me into the desert
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    And all the little pigs have God

  4. #134
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Can anyone name a rightist anti-fascist organisation?
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

  5. #135
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Hey, what do I know? I am just an ethnic Pole, born and raised in the USSR, to parents who lost almost all their relatives to the twin plagues of the 20th century.

    Someone who had enjoyed all the benefits of the fat and happy Anglo-Saxon capitalist societies - including the undisputed right to bite the hand that feeds you - of course he knows better! He is much more, er, objective...
    But if we are to take this as an authoritative stance, what do we do with the influx of European immigrants--fleeing from the Soviet satellites, from Nazi Germany--who were so integral to the North American progressive movements?
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

  6. #136
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post

    But I don't see why you should give the political Right a pass
    Why do you think that I do anything of the sort? I am not giving them a pass - I am saying that they are a total fraud. I mean, how someone who is homophobic, anti-Semitic, closed-borders fanatic, anti-free-markets, anti-free-minds, militaristic, etc, etc is "Right-wing"? - doesn't it describe a good Stalinist, down to the last shiny button on his NKVD uniform?

  7. #137
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Why do you think that I do anything of the sort? I am not giving them a pass - I am saying that they are a total fraud.

    My point--stated at least twice--is that all conservatives, in power, behave in certain authoritarian ways...and that to blame some theoretical "leftism" for what people do becomes a pretty tepid argument.

    If your argument is that conservatives don't actually exist--so that by default all abuse of power is Leftist--then fine. We're arguing that everybody's a leftist. But I don't think that's your argument.

    I mean, how someone who is homophobic, anti-Semitic, closed-borders fanatic, anti-free-markets, anti-free-minds, militaristic, etc, etc is "Right-wing"? - doesn't it describe a good Stalinist, down to the last shiny button on his NKVD uniform?

    It also describes the right-wing reactionary.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

  8. #138
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    the influx of European immigrants--fleeing from the Soviet satellites, from Nazi Germany--who were so integral to the North American progressive movements?
    Nabokov was anywhere close to "progressive"? Rachmaninoff? (Who challenged some hapless fellow to a duel over a semantic muddle concerning the word "revolutionary") Stravinsky?

    Yes, a whole bunch of German emigrants held views nearly identical to the views of the Nazis - except for the anti-Semitic part - because they were Jewish. So, they had cheered for the Other Twin (whose own anti-Semitism did not become obvious until some two decades later).

    But notice the difference: Those are the people who had escaped - before the most terrible events in known history had provided the ultimate clarity. Those of us who were not so lucky have no excuse to delude ourselves.
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 05-22-13 at 08:32 AM.

  9. #139
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    This is not accurate. "Left" and "right" are extremely malleable terms (as several posters have correctly pointed out). In the end, "conservative" is what conservative does; same with liberal.

    So we can look at what the right wing and left wing does in our (ie north American) arena; or we can play No True Scotsman.

    So, if the political Right opposes Big government, they would of course oppose the death penalty, for starters...by far the most extreme manifestaiton of any statist government, and one of its organizing principles, at least de facto.

    Some people mistake "big" or "small" government as being terms almost entirely to do with taxes, social programs, "entitlements" and so on. But these are only aspects, and not even the most important.

    Authoritarianism and "big government" have a lot of different components.

    so for example, there are some Westerners (including the late Ms. Thatcher) who have the unmitigated nerve to laud Pinochet (a right-winger) for his "small government" and "economic freedoms."

    In other words, running a gigantic imprisonment, torture and murder regime is not "big government"; but raising taxes is!

    Big Government is when the state can give you everything you desire, but also take it away at any moment. Be it Welfare or Life!
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  10. #140
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    Re: Is Fascism Right Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    It also describes the right-wing reactionary.
    Begging the question: Is there really such thing as "the right-wing reactionary"? If we have identical phenomena described by "opposite" terms, shouldn't we drop one of the terms? I don't mind if you say that ALL totalitarian, extreme-statist regime were "actually right-wing", or (as I prefer, for "sentimental reasons") that they were all "actually left-wing". But it makes no sense to declare one "left", and its near-perfect copy "right".

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