View Poll Results: Israel or Palestine?

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  • Israel. The UN created it for a reason

    23 31.51%
  • Palestine. It was their land.

    18 24.66%
  • Israel, but the land the UN gave them when first made.

    15 20.55%
  • Other (post below)

    17 23.29%
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Thread: Israel and Palestine

  1. #71
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    Re: Israel and Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasea
    The Arab is patient and will bide his time. The stated goal is to drive Israel into the sea. The UN mandates mean nothing to them.

    When it appears that the time is right the Arab nations will form up and another attempt will be made.
    I believe this is less likely now after the death of Abu Arafat and the current Middle East political climate per soverign states. Egypt and Jordan have viable peace treaties with Israel (with Morocco next). The Iraqi military threat has been removed from the equation. By seeding insurgents into Iraq, Syria has already pushed the bully envelope as far as she dares and has suffered the humiliation of being booted out of Lebanon. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is occupied with tremendous internal problems.

    Israel is voluntarily and unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza. Abu Abbas and Palestine have nothing to gain and everything to lose if they screw this initiative up. This is their golden opportunity to either put up or shut up.

    One must also consider another important facet. The Arab nations of the Middle East have not been able to keep up with the hi-tech weaponry developed and employed by the Israel Defense Forces. Any conventional invasion of Israel by Arab nations today would result in a much more severe thrashing than they received in 1967 if that is possible.

    The predominant dangers to Israel today are terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Hizb'allah (Hezbollah), a nuclear-weaponized Iran, and the vicious spittle that eminates from the Arab bloc at the esteemed United (Dysfunctional) Nations.



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  2. #72
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    Re: Israel and Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah
    Originally Posted by Fantasea
    The Arab is patient and will bide his time. The stated goal is to drive Israel into the sea. The UN mandates mean nothing to them.

    When it appears that the time is right the Arab nations will form up and another attempt will be made.
    I believe this is less likely now after the death of Abu Arafat and the current Middle East political climate per soverign states. Egypt and Jordan have viable peace treaties with Israel (with Morocco next). The Iraqi military threat has been removed from the equation. By seeding insurgents into Iraq, Syria has already pushed the bully envelope as far as she dares and has suffered the humiliation of being booted out of Lebanon. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is occupied with tremendous internal problems.

    Israel is voluntarily and unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza. Abu Abbas and Palestine have nothing to gain and everything to lose if they screw this initiative up. This is their golden opportunity to either put up or shut up.

    One must also consider another important facet. The Arab nations of the Middle East have not been able to keep up with the hi-tech weaponry developed and employed by the Israel Defense Forces. Any conventional invasion of Israel by Arab nations today would result in a much more severe thrashing than they received in 1967 if that is possible.

    The predominant dangers to Israel today are terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Hizb'allah (Hezbollah), a nuclear-weaponized Iran, and the vicious spittle that eminates from the Arab bloc at the esteemed United (Dysfunctional) Nations.
    None of what you write is lost on the Arabs. But, their movement need not take the form of war.

    However, their goal remains, as does their patience. Simply encouraging and supporting a more rapid population growth among Palestinians, coupled with a 'relaxed' attitude toward peace could, in several generations, produce an imbalance which would simply overwhelm the Israeli populace by dilution.

    As the Japanese gained, through peaceful means, the share of the US that they could not gain by war, the Arabs may try the same tactic.

  3. #73
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    Re: Israel and Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasea
    None of what you write is lost on the Arabs. But, their movement need not take the form of war.

    However, their goal remains, as does their patience. Simply encouraging and supporting a more rapid population growth among Palestinians, coupled with a 'relaxed' attitude toward peace could, in several generations, produce an imbalance which would simply overwhelm the Israeli populace by dilution.

    As the Japanese gained, through peaceful means, the share of the US that they could not gain by war, the Arabs may try the same tactic.
    I understand the concept of victory through population demographics. I can also assure you that none of what you write is lost on the Israelis.

    Per the Arab/Israeli population demographics, you must take into account that the cost of living in Israel is far above what it would be living in the slums of Gaza or Samaria. In other words, the financial burden of large Arab families in Israel would be prohibitive. I suppose you'll have to trust me on this, but Israel will not artificially support (welfare) those who would rather engage in procreation than education.

    Arab ingress and egress statistics are also monitored and adjusted. For Arab spouses who are separated (one living in Israel and the other in Palestine), egress is unlimited but ingress is subject to Israeli government controls. I believe at the current time a Palestinian female must be at least 25 years of age and a Palestinian male 35 years of age to reunite in Israel proper.

    Despite the fact that there are Christians, Muslims, and Druze living in Israel, it was conceived and realized with a specific purpose, and shall remain as the Jewish homeland. Anyone who believes this truism is problematic is more than welcome to emigrate elsewhere.



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  4. #74
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    Re: Israel and Palestine

    Within a day of the horrific multiple bombings in London, the G8 announced a $3B grant to the Palestinian Authority. The symbolism of this connection may be lost on some Westerners, but it clearly sent a powerful message to terrorists and potential terrorists: namely, that terrorism works.

    There were no grants announced to the Tibetans, who have been occupied more brutally and for a longer period of time than the Palestinians. The Tibetans, however, have never resorted to terrorism.

    The Palestinian Authority, and its leaders, are the godfathers of international terrorism. They developed airplane hijacking into a high art. They invented the high-profile murder of athletes and other prominent public figures. Were it not for their employment of terrorism, the Palestinian cause would today be regarded as the fifth-rate human rights issue that it rightfully is. But because the Palestinian leadership has always used terrorism (from the 1920s on) as the tactic of first resort, their cause has received worldwide recognition.

    The primary cause of terrorism is not occupation, humiliation, or desperation. If it were, the Tibetans would be the greatest terrorists. The primary cause of terrorism is that it works. And it works because the craven international community gives into it and rewards it. It also works because too many Islamic leaders praise it and too few condemn it. Terrorism will continue as long as potential terrorists believe they will benefit from using that tactic.

  5. #75
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    Re: Israel and Palestine

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah
    Abu Abbas and Palestine have nothing to gain and everything to lose if they screw this initiative up.
    I bet they scew it up all the same.
    The predominant dangers to Israel today are terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Hizb'allah (Hezbollah), a nuclear-weaponized Iran, and the vicious spittle that eminates from the Arab bloc at the esteemed United (Dysfunctional) Nations.
    Just my opinion but if the US doesn't do anything I don't see Israel letting Iran finish that nuclear plant. BOOM.

  6. #76
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    Re: Israel and Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah
    I understand the concept of victory through population demographics. I can also assure you that none of what you write is lost on the Israelis.

    Per the Arab/Israeli population demographics, you must take into account that the cost of living in Israel is far above what it would be living in the slums of Gaza or Samaria. In other words, the financial burden of large Arab families in Israel would be prohibitive. I suppose you'll have to trust me on this, but Israel will not artificially support (welfare) those who would rather engage in procreation than education.

    Arab ingress and egress statistics are also monitored and adjusted. For Arab spouses who are separated (one living in Israel and the other in Palestine), egress is unlimited but ingress is subject to Israeli government controls. I believe at the current time a Palestinian female must be at least 25 years of age and a Palestinian male 35 years of age to reunite in Israel proper.

    Despite the fact that there are Christians, Muslims, and Druze living in Israel, it was conceived and realized with a specific purpose, and shall remain as the Jewish homeland. Anyone who believes this truism is problematic is more than welcome to emigrate elsewhere.
    In the event that I have not made it sufficiently clear, I'm on your side.

    To the extent that Arabs spend quite a bit of money supporting the Palestinians and their handlers, as well as paying for all the costs of the 'military' operations, they could just as well subsidize Palestinians living in Israel and encourage more of them to 'move in'.

    The situation would be akin to that of France, where it is estimated that the Islamic component of the population currently stands at 25% and continues to increase. Politicians there are projecting the day when an election will occur which will sweep Islamics into every national political office. Then we'll see about those head scarves, won't we?

    So, who needs a war when the victory can be been won at the ballot box.

    The past fifty years has seen no gain by the Arabs in the constant and uninterrupted struggle with Israel. Fifty years more and it could be all over without firing a shot.

    Perhaps abortion has an unintended consequence after all.

  7. #77
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    Re: Israel and Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hornburger
    I think its Palestine's land then...if Israel was created in 1920 I would say it would be okay because the Allies conquered the Ottoman Empire...but that was no the case. It seems as though the Allies were only making Israel because of the guilt they felt after the Holocaust. Palestine was the sole mandate that occupied that land-not Israel...so I think Palestine now.
    Israel was created not due to the holocaust though that pushed along the decision as well as the end of WW2. The Jewish people had been immigrating to Palastine in rising numbers for the past decade and a half before 1948, and as a result of newly sprouting Jewish communities the Arabs decided they needed indipendance to safeguard against the Jews, around 1937 the first Arab revolt broke out and was crush by British troops, the Arabs became restless and began evolving or rather devolving to what they are today. Around 1939 the Jews and Arabs were having regular clashes, and the Jew's began building more kibbutzim, and the British deployed more troops to keep the area under control and for a while it simmered. After the war ended hostilities flaired up again and numerous people were killed and as partition began to be talked about as a reality the Arabs went berserk and began openly attacking convoys of supplies and arab snipers took to the country side. We were fighting the arabs for the next two years until partition. It was not open warfare but every few days you would hear about a clash between Jews and Arabs. So as you can see there was much violence in the region and nearing the coming of partion numerous british soldiers were being killed and a few were kidnapped and exicuted, the British government wanted to end the violence that had been going on for over 10 years, so they decided to make two nations out of the ENGLISH provence of palastinem, "Israel" "Palastine" the Jews had begun immigrating there when the zionist movement began in 1900.



    Let me put it to you like this, it would be like the Native Americans saying they wanted the land back from you, do you give it to them? No of course not, and unless you do support giving your whole nation back to the indians its so incredibly hippocritical to dictate that the land belongs to the Arabs. Also, it's not like we forced the Arabs off their land, partion split the Jewish concentrated areas off from the arab concentrated areas, into two seperate nations, but the Arabs burned with hatred for the Jews and attacked and suffered as a result of their own hate. They were struck again when the Arab nations geared for war and Palastinian fedayeen units began sprouting up, so we struck to prevent an invasion, as a result the Arabs lost what grip they had in Palastine.


    (Also in addition the term palastinian does not even really have a proper reason for existing, the first time the Arabs began coining that phrase was after the 1967 war in an attempt to attract pity for their "cause")

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    Re: Israel and Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasea
    In the event that I have not made it sufficiently clear, I'm on your side.

    To the extent that Arabs spend quite a bit of money supporting the Palestinians and their handlers, as well as paying for all the costs of the 'military' operations, they could just as well subsidize Palestinians living in Israel and encourage more of them to 'move in'.

    The situation would be akin to that of France, where it is estimated that the Islamic component of the population currently stands at 25% and continues to increase. Politicians there are projecting the day when an election will occur which will sweep Islamics into every national political office. Then we'll see about those head scarves, won't we?

    So, who needs a war when the victory can be been won at the ballot box.

    The past fifty years has seen no gain by the Arabs in the constant and uninterrupted struggle with Israel. Fifty years more and it could be all over without firing a shot.

    Perhaps abortion has an unintended consequence after all.

    Actually the Arabs dont vote in our elections they vote in the seperate Palastian Authority Elections. This is to avoid exactly what you describe, as it was thought of over 50 years ago. So it will never happen.
    Last edited by superskippy; 07-10-05 at 01:47 AM.

  9. #79
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    Re: Israel and Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasea
    In the event that I have not made it sufficiently clear, I'm on your side.
    I do realize that and appreciate your support Fantasea.

    I expounded on your post mainly for the purpose of explaining that what on the surface may seem to be an unyielding principle (that high Arab birth rates will dilute and eventually abolish Jewish control of Israel via population demographics), is neither a viable truism nor an absolute commodity.

    Rather than being a democracy in the true ideological sense, Israel is actually a quasi-democracy and has no written Constitution. The guiding principles of Israel's conception and realization were deliniated in its initial statement of independence and soverignty. Israel is a Jewish state and shall remain a Jewish state. If additional legislation is required to ensure its ethnic composition and its longevity... then that shall be addressed in due course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasea
    To the extent that Arabs spend quite a bit of money supporting the Palestinians and their handlers, as well as paying for all the costs of the 'military' operations, they could just as well subsidize Palestinians living in Israel and encourage more of them to 'move in'.
    Arabs and Palestinians cannot simply 'move in' to Israel. The border control points are highly regulated. I'll share with you a pertinint story...

    I have a personal and professional friend who lives in the United States and is an American citizen. Her name is Rana and she is of Palestinian decent. Rana has a Ph.D. in Religious Studies and holds the Religious Department chair at a major American university.

    A few months ago, Rana flew to Israel to visit extended family in the territories and spend a few days with me in Tel Aviv. Despite the fact that Rana is a highly educated American citizen and traveling on a valid American passport, she was subjected to intense scrutiny by Israeli security at Ben Gurion International Airport. The main problem was that she listed visiting family in Samaria (the West Bank) as her reason for visiting Israel. To make a long story short, my personal and direct intervention was required for Rana to negotiate the Israeli airport security, border control, and customs apparatus.

    As you can plainly deduce from this, Israel does not at all resemble France in this regard and does not extend either 'colonial citizenship' or 'right of return' status to ethnic Arabs and Palestinians. Although it may seem logical to assume that population demographics will eventually win the day for Arabists who harbor the illusion of victory through the Israeli electorate, it is precisely this electorate that precludes this notion from becoming a reality.


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  10. #80
    Major General Big Lug
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    Re: Israel and Palestine

    Hey Billo,

    Whether or not intentional, by continually throwing reports on one side of Iraq, a side that is shared by people like you with a pre-existing grudge,(As your attached image proves), you are hurting the morale of both the military personale reading this and/or their families. It achieves NOTHING positive. Everything you do is an attempt to sabotage. You are not seeking truth and you are not seeking lies....You just seek to hurt.

    You will not rest until there is a 100% disapproval rating for our current President, which would still be irrelevant because, like it or not, he is OUR President until Jan. 2008.

    Defend your actions anyway you want...your ending results are hurtful.

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