View Poll Results: What does "sociail justice" mean to you?

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  • Equality

    15 23.08%
  • Solidarity

    7 10.77%
  • Wealth redistribution

    23 35.38%
  • Socialism

    20 30.77%
  • Justice

    19 29.23%
  • Unjustice

    14 21.54%
  • Good

    9 13.85%
  • Evil

    10 15.38%
  • Prosperity

    7 10.77%
  • Other

    18 27.69%
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Thread: Social justice

  1. #201
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    You mean, private property should be distinct from personal possession?
    Absolutely, there is a huge difference. The former requires a whole state institution, the latter doesn't.

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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Absolutely, there is a huge difference. The former requires a whole state institution, the latter doesn't.
    OK, please tell me why a piece of land that feeds you should be different from the shirt you are wearing?

  3. #203
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    OK, please tell me why a piece of land that feeds you should be different from the shirt you are wearing?
    The shirt I'm wearing doesn't require a state institution in order to give me exlusive rights to it.

    Me wearing a shirt doesn't exclude a piece of nature from others.

  4. #204
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    The shirt I'm wearing doesn't require a state institution in order to give me exlusive rights to it.
    Actually it does. It requires a judicial system to guard you from thieves.
    On the other hand, it's much more convenient and hygienic for one to NOT wear other peoples shirts or one might catch a disease. It also makes you care for the shirt because if you tear it, you'll have to wear a torn shirt (assuming you don't live in a fantasy world of endless supply of shirts). That's the main purpose of property - to make you care, to bond you with something and be responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Me wearing a shirt doesn't exclude a piece of nature from others.
    One could argue that you wearing a shirt leaves someone else shirtless since two humans cannot wear one shirt at the same time.
    How about air? When you breathe you diminish air for others, i.e. exclude them in a way.
    Last edited by Canell; 05-28-13 at 09:41 AM.

  5. #205
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Actually it does. It requires a judicial system to guard you from thieves.
    On the other hand, it's much more convenient and hygienic for one to NOT wear other peoples shirts or one might catch a disease. It also makes you care for the shirt because if you tear it, you'll have to wear a torn shirt (assuming you don't live in a fantasy world of endless supply of shirts). That's the main purpose of property - to make you care, to bond you with something and be responsible.
    Not really, for them to take it requires an attack on my person, it's clear that it's mine ... I'm using it, I'm wearing it, I'm in direct contact with it, people around know it's mine.

    I don't need a document to show that it's mine.

    One could argue that you wearing a shirt leaves someone else shirtless it since two humans cannot wear one shirt at the same time.
    How about air? When you breathe you diminish air for others, i.e. exclude them in a way.
    It doesn't diminish air, because air just exists, but yeah, you can't own air.

    As far as me wearing a shirt, one person has to wear it, if I'm wearing it I'm wearing it, that isn't the case with land ownership. Me wearing a t-shirt is not stopping other people from wearing t-shirts, perhaps if I own all the t-shirt factories, but that's different.

    Are you seriously saying there is no difference between personal possession and capitalist property?

  6. #206
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    I don't need a document to show that it's mine.
    Well, if you own a land in a village, you don't need a document too since everybody knows it's your farm. The document is for outsiders to know you that land belongs to you, you care for it and you can collect the benefits (or negatives like destroyed crop and time) that it brings to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    It doesn't diminish air, because air just exists, but yeah, you can't own air.
    Duh, one can say the same about land - if you want your own land, find some (buy or find uninhabited territory).
    I guess it all boils down to whether there is land available or not. I hope I'm not alive when people start arguing about air claims!

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Are you seriously saying there is no difference between personal possession and capitalist property?
    To me there is two main kinds of property - private and non private (all other property - family, community, county, state, etc.). I've never understood that Marxist play of words (private - personal property)

  7. #207
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Well, if you own a land in a village, you don't need a document too since everybody knows it's your farm. The document is for outsiders to know you that land belongs to you, you care for it and you can collect the benefits (or negatives like destroyed crop and time) that it brings to you.
    Here is the difference, I understand that you claiming to own that land relies on the consent of the village as a whole, i.e. it's a privilege not a right.

    It's secondary to the community, not primary.

    Duh, one can say the same about land - if you want your own land, find some (buy or find uninhabited territory).
    I guess it all boils down to whether there is land available or not. I hope I'm not alive when people start arguing about air claims!
    You can't buy land if it isn't property, just like you can't buy air. Also if you find uninhabited territory, you don't need ownership since your the only one there.

    No one nees to argue about air claims since no one OWNS air, you're kind of proving my point there.

    To me there is two main kinds of property - private and non private (all other property - family, community, county, state, etc.). I've never understood that Marxist play of words (private - personal property)
    There is a huge difference, and I explained it, basically, if you need a paper to show it's ours, it's private property, if its something that you just use for your own personal life or your families then it's personal property.

  8. #208
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    There is a huge difference, and I explained it, basically, if you need a paper to show it's ours, it's private property, if its something that you just use for your own personal life or your families then it's personal property.
    Dude, you need the papers to prove it's yours, nothing more. Because the police and judges can't know who owns what since there is a myriad stuff on this planet.
    For example, somebody stole your car and drive it in you village, everybody will instantly know that it's your car.
    But if the guy is from 500 miles away, you will need the papers to prove it's your car, not his (the thieve), when you go to take it back. There is a description for it - colour, model, number of the body, engine, etc). That's documents for you.

  9. #209
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Dude, you need the papers to prove it's yours, nothing more. Because the police and judges can't know who owns what since there is a myriad stuff on this planet.
    For example, somebody stole your car and drive it in you village, everybody will instantly know that it;s your car.
    But if the guy is from 500 miles away, you will need the papers to prove it's your car, not his (the thieve). There is a description for it - colour, model, number of the body, engine, etc). That's documents for you.
    Ownership is a social institution.

    You don't need property unles there are other people that could have a claim on things.

    Here is my point for land ownership to exist you need a social institution and you need a state to recognize it, otherwise there is no legitimate claim.

    For a car the claim is easy, I use this and as a community we agree that cars are individually used.

    For land the ONLY defence I've heard is the homestead argument, which I've knocked down on this forum over and over again.

    Land ownership is essencially mini monarchy. You can claim to be a king, but it's meaningless without a social institution to back up your claim.

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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Ownership is a social institution.

    You don't need property unles there are other people that could have a claim on things.
    Interestingly, a thieve is always ready to claim that your property is his property.
    Back to square one.

    Are you a practicing anarchist?

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