View Poll Results: What does "sociail justice" mean to you?

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  • Equality

    15 23.08%
  • Solidarity

    7 10.77%
  • Wealth redistribution

    23 35.38%
  • Socialism

    20 30.77%
  • Justice

    19 29.23%
  • Unjustice

    14 21.54%
  • Good

    9 13.85%
  • Evil

    10 15.38%
  • Prosperity

    7 10.77%
  • Other

    18 27.69%
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Thread: Social justice

  1. #191
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    For farms I prefer Danish style cooperatives, where the farm workers have a significant say over what goes on.
    The farmer shareholder can have "a significant say" because he actually already controls "what goes on", on the level of his own farm. Which is still very much his own. The Denmark-headquartered multinationals like Arla are not cooperatives of hired workers - they are cooperatives of small business owners. (This year, Arla boasts some 12,000 owners - and 18,000 employees).

    Not to make any particular point (I am not against voluntary worker organizations of any sort), just for the sake of clarity.

  2. #192
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Why would not having a right to property mean everything belongs to the state? That doesn't follow at all ... It could be common, it could be possessional but not property based, it could be individual but not corporate, it could be community it could be many things.

    There is nothing that follows in the statement. "no right to absolute private property = Everything belongs to the state."



    You're just making up these definitions .... Article 4 Secion 4 is NOT a definitional statement.

    A Democratic form of government IS A TYPE OF republican form of government, the soviet union was a republic, not a democracy, democracy is a concept that can apply to many different things, companeis can be democracires (cooperatives) but nto republics since they are not nation-states.

    You're just making up definition that no one uses and arguing against strawmen.

    BTW, you cannot own yourself, since you ARE yourself, ownership is agent in relationship to object, you are not an object, you are the agent.

    Also you can't own your labor, only the result of your labor, which capitalists DO NOT respect since they take capital ownership to as primary, i.e. the result of your labor is only yours if you also own the capital.

    Just some logical faults in your argument.
    your not going to read them at all, but i will make the suggestion anyway, try reading the federalist papers which explain the constitution.

    you will see their is noting in them about our government being called democratic.

    Madison draws a distinction between the 2 different types of government in federalist 10.

    if america was created as a democracy in any form, we would have had the people voting directly for senator, congressman, and president, but we didn't.

    all the things you profess, are not what the founders envisioned.

  3. #193
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that is because the WHO rankings do not rank based on who actually provides care to the sick. As an example, one of the WHO's major scores is equity of care. So, for example, if there were a disease that killed 100% of those it afflicted in both America and Britain, and then someone in America invented a cure, but could only afford to give it to 50% of sufferers, the WHO would drop the US' score relative to Britain - despite the fact that Britain's mortality rate was still 100%, and America's was 50% - because at least all those Britons were dying equally.
    That would only be so if availability of health care were the only factor taken into consideration. As you know, this is not so. Availability is only one of many factors.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

  4. #194
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    The farmer shareholder can have "a significant say" because he actually already controls "what goes on", on the level of his own farm. Which is still very much his own. The Denmark-headquartered multinationals like Arla are not cooperatives of hired workers - they are cooperatives of small business owners. (This year, Arla boasts some 12,000 owners - and 18,000 employees).

    Not to make any particular point (I am not against voluntary worker organizations of any sort), just for the sake of clarity.
    No cooperatives are cooperatives of hired workers, the worker/capitalist dicotomy is totally different.

    Also no institution just comes up organically, corporations grew in the US fast because of the legal and institutional framework they grew in, the same with Denmark.

  5. #195
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    your not going to read them at all, but i will make the suggestion anyway, try reading the federalist papers which explain the constitution.

    you will see their is noting in them about our government being called democratic.

    Madison draws a distinction between the 2 different types of government in federalist 10.

    if america was created as a democracy in any form, we would have had the people voting directly for senator, congressman, and president, but we didn't.

    all the things you profess, are not what the founders envisioned.
    Again, a democracy is not a type of government .... it's an organizing principle ...

  6. #196
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    No cooperatives are cooperatives of hired workers, the worker/capitalist dicotomy is totally different.

    Also no institution just comes up organically, corporations grew in the US fast because of the legal and institutional framework they grew in, the same with Denmark.
    Fine, but then the American "corporations" are not really different from the Danish "cooperatives".

    I have spent most of my professional life with small-to-medium companies that had a very high level of "stakeholder participation" of most employees - one of them actually in Denmark, the rest in the old good "capitalist" USA. We are not farmers, we are lab rats - so stock options are a better way of realizing our collective ownership than cooperative agreements, that's all.

  7. #197
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Fine, but then the American "corporations" are not really different from the Danish "cooperatives".

    I have spent most of my professional life with small-to-medium companies that had a very high level of "stakeholder participation" of most employees - one of them actually in Denmark, the rest in the old good "capitalist" USA. We are not farmers, we are lab rats - so stock options are a better way of realizing our collective ownership than cooperative agreements, that's all.
    They are absolutely different when it comes down to actual decision making and dealing with externalities.

    Stock options are a terrible idea, (any idea taht powers workers that comes from the buisiness class generally sucks), sock options never actually give workers workable power in the company, you need a TON of stock for it to be meaninful, and all it does is tie your wellbeing to the profit of the company, i.e. YOUR OWN exploitation and the exploitation of other workers (by exploitation all I mean is getting the most profit out of each worker while paying them the least).

    Cooperatives will never outsource themselves, they won't pollute their own homes, they won't cut their own wages, there is no dicotomy between their wages and the company profits, they are one in the same.

    Also stakeholder participation isn't the issue, it's actual control.

  8. #198
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    stock options never actually give workers workable power in the company, you need a TON of stock for it to be meaninful, and all it does is tie your wellbeing to the profit of the company.
    Well, yeah, it makes you care about the whole enterprise, not just your own next promotion and resume upgrade. Terrible.
    And how much "workable power" you have depends on the size of the company. In an early-stage biotech or hi-tech corporation - quite a lot.

  9. #199
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Well, yeah, it makes you care about the whole enterprise, not just your own next promotion and resume upgrade. Terrible.
    And how much "workable power" you have depends on the size of the company. In an early-stage biotech or hi-tech corporation - quite a lot.
    You get the difference between having you're main source of income being your wage and then having stock interest in the company that pays you, and a cooperative right?

    A cooperative makes you your own boss, literally, there is a huge difference.

  10. #200
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Property that goes beyond personal possession and thus requires a whole community to enforce it is a privledge not a right.
    You mean, private property should be distinct from personal possession?

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