View Poll Results: What does "sociail justice" mean to you?

Voters
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  • Equality

    15 23.08%
  • Solidarity

    7 10.77%
  • Wealth redistribution

    23 35.38%
  • Socialism

    20 30.77%
  • Justice

    19 29.23%
  • Unjustice

    14 21.54%
  • Good

    9 13.85%
  • Evil

    10 15.38%
  • Prosperity

    7 10.77%
  • Other

    18 27.69%
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Thread: Social justice

  1. #181
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Government housing is taking care of the market failing to make low income housing, its lower quality because it's LOW INCOME, private construction or real estate doesn't find it profitable to make low income housing, it's a problem with capitalism, so the state has to fill in the holes, unless you want mass homelessness, squatting and so on.
    Odd. All those people must have lived in trees before government stepped in, then, huh. Seems strange the history books failed to mention that.

    Government housing (like centralized planning of agriculture) only demonstrates the failure of the "well you have to have it so market rules don't apply" argument.

    That's an argument for why Capitalism doesn't work, that we need government housing.
    Wrong. Government housing is an excellent example of what happens when you let the government replace a market function. Destroyed communities yielding intergenerational patterns of self-destructive behavior locking people into cycles of poverty, crime, and squalor.

    There is no such thing as government food ....
    Really?

    I wonder what I've been eating for the past 7 years or so, then....


    The government does not protect them from competition ... Capitalism does.
    I don't know what else to say except that this is completely backwards. Capitalism exposes all private actors, including insurance companies, to competition. It requires the intervention of government to reduce, shape, or anull the effects of that competition. For example, our sugar growers are able to charge Americans much higher prices than the international cost of sugar without fear of competition - because they are protected by the government.

    Healthcare insurance is ONLY DEALING WITH THE FUNDING, not delivery of healthcare ..... for gods sake, pay attention,
    That is unfortunately not correct - which is why cuts to reimbursement schedules are de facto reductions in care.

    Is that supposed to be an arugment? the main aspect of progressivism is left out, i.e. democracy and individual autonomy, it's an idiotic strawman.
    Oh, there's individual autonomy? Oh, well, never mind. I stand corrected - that's fantastic. Please let me know where to go to fill out the paperwork to opt out of Obamacare and Social Security. I will be there first thing tomorrow.

    Yes, the idea of "freedom" as "the government controlling ever increasing portions of your life in order to force enough redistribution in the attempt to meet a desired minimum set of results for all citizens" is indeed prisonesque.

    Alexis de Toqueville (as is so often the case) described it particularly well:

    ...Thus, After having thus successively taken each member of the community in its powerful grasp and fashioned him at will, the supreme power then extends its arm over the whole community. It covers the surface of society with a network of small complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate, to rise above the crowd. The will of man is not shattered, but softened, bent, and guided; men are seldom forced by it to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting. Such a power does not destroy, but it prevents existence; it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd....

  2. #182
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Odd. All those people must have lived in trees before government stepped in, then, huh. Seems strange the history books failed to mention that.

    Government housing (like centralized planning of agriculture) only demonstrates the failure of the "well you have to have it so market rules don't apply" argument.
    History books do mention it .... You just have to look harder, also government housing has been around almost as long as capitalism.

    Wrong. Government housing is an excellent example of what happens when you let the government replace a market function. Destroyed communities yielding intergenerational patterns of self-destructive behavior locking people into cycles of poverty, crime, and squalor.
    And when they take down the projects all that stuff goes away right?

    Government housing doesn't CAUSE poverty, it's the result of it.

    What your saying is aking to saying that hospitals cause sickness.

    The capitalist market is free to build low income housing and sell them to poor people ... why don't they do it?

    1. MRE was only in the military.
    2. Government cheese was ended in the early 90s, and wasn't produced by the staet, it was bought and distributed by the state.

    I don't know what else to say except that this is completely backwards. Capitalism exposes all private actors, including insurance companies, to competition. It requires the intervention of government to reduce, shape, or anull the effects of that competition. For example, our sugar growers are able to charge Americans much higher prices than the international cost of sugar without fear of competition - because they are protected by the government.
    1. Not necessarily, monopolies, or close monopolies, oligarchies and so on arise all the time in Capitalism ALL THE TIME.
    2. competition amung producers is one thing, but when it comes to insurance the problem is that one MUST buy insurance, and that the payouts are unpredictable and the incentive of the insurancers is to screw the consumers, thats why it should be a not for profit institution.

    AS IT IS IN THE REST OF THE WORLD, and why the rest of the world delivers better healthcare results for much less of the cost.

    That is unfortunately not correct - which is why cuts to reimbursement schedules are de facto reductions in care.
    yes ... if yo ucan't afford something yo udon't get it, the insurance company FUNDS the healthcare, they don't deliver it.

    Oh, there's individual autonomy? Oh, well, never mind. I stand corrected - that's fantastic. Please let me know where to go to fill out the paperwork to opt out of Obamacare and Social Security. I will be there first thing tomorrow.

    Yes, the idea of "freedom" as "the government controlling ever increasing portions of your life in order to force enough redistribution in the attempt to meet a desired minimum set of results for all citizens" is indeed prisonesque.
    1. You can opt out of Social Security, just don't take it, you're still paying the tax, you can opt out of Social Security when I can opt out of paying any tax that goes to military.
    2. Obamacare, i.e. the mandate WAS A CONSERVATIVE IDEA that was thought up by the heratiage foundation and pushed origionally by karl rove.

    3. My idea of "freedom" has nothing to do with the government, it has to do with you being able to have a say over the things in society that directly effect you, its the basis of democracy.

    If I have to live with the results of a healthcare system, I should have a say over it no matter what my bank account says ....

    You're idea of freedom is aparently, freedom for all ... that can afford it, and freedom from government tyranny, but you still ahve to live with whatever world the large corporations give you.

  3. #183
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    If you tell me the relevance of this question to the point I'm making or to the issue I'll answer it, so far it seams just like a red herring.
    Well, in post #167 you were complaining about a 5 generations farm being inherited by an owner, who doesn't work on it. You also stated that is OK for other people to steal apples from the farm, since the owner is away.

    Now, would you please answer the question.

  4. #184
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Well, in post #167 you were complaining about a 5 generations farm being inherited by an owner, who doesn't work on it. You also stated that is OK for other people to steal apples from the farm, since the owner is away.

    Now, would you please answer the question.
    1. I was complaining about the framework that allows that, not about the actual individuals.
    2. I didn't say it was ok for people to steal apples, I said the institutional framework that MAKES it stealing for farmworkers to keep the fruits of their labor is wrong.

  5. #185
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    2. I didn't say it was ok for people to steal apples, I said the institutional framework that MAKES it stealing for farmworkers to keep the fruits of their labor is wrong.
    Yes, you did:

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    it was passed down 5 generations to you, and people around it are starving but you can still use the police and violence of the state to stop them from picking apples from that farm because it's "Yours"...
    As I understand it, you consider it wrong if the police stopped starving people from picking apples against your will.
    What happened to those 8 and 10-th Commandments? You know, "thou shall no steal" and “You shall not covet...". Don't you think it's a property issue?

  6. #186
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Yes, you did:

    As I understand it, you consider it wrong if the police stopped starving people from picking apples against your will.
    What happened to those 8 and 10-th Commandments? You know, "thou shall no steal" and “You shall not covet...". Don't you think it's a property issue?
    I wasn't saying it's wrong for police to enforce the law, I'm saying the LAW is immoral and wrong in itself, and that the law should be changed.

    1. Thau shall not steel is something I would affirm, my problem is with the property and capital/resource distribution framework, I'm not saying that people as individuals should steal.

    2. Covetousness is the ENTIRE BASIS OF CAPITALISM, capitalism forces those who run corporations to get more and more and more, and maximize profits. I'm talking AGAIN about the economic system, not how individuals should act as individuals within whatever system they are in.

    Apples and Oranges buddy.

  7. #187
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    I wasn't saying it's wrong for police to enforce the law, I'm saying the LAW is immoral and wrong in itself, and that the law should be changed.
    Why don't you just nationalize the farm and feed the starving. That would be so noble, you know.

  8. #188
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Why don't you just nationalize the farm and feed the starving. That would be so noble, you know.
    I don't believe in nationalizing farms ... at least not in most circumstances.

  9. #189
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    I don't believe in nationalizing farms ... at least not in most circumstances.
    OK, so spell it man. What is your framework, what do you suggest? Enough of this hide&seek.

  10. #190
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    OK, so spell it man. What is your framework, what do you suggest? Enough of this hide&seek.
    My framework is based on the principle that everyone that has to live with the decision of something should have a say in it.

    For farms I prefer Danish style cooperatives, where the farm workers have a significant say over what goes on.

    I think some economic institutions are best done privately or individually, some cooperatively, some by a government that represents an entire community.

    I'm not against property, I'm saying property is subservient to the community that enforces it, property isn't absolute.

    Property that goes beyond personal possession and thus requires a whole community to enforce it is a privledge not a right.

    Kind of like airwaves are private but they are part of the commons.

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