View Poll Results: What does "sociail justice" mean to you?

Voters
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  • Equality

    15 23.08%
  • Solidarity

    7 10.77%
  • Wealth redistribution

    23 35.38%
  • Socialism

    20 30.77%
  • Justice

    19 29.23%
  • Unjustice

    14 21.54%
  • Good

    9 13.85%
  • Evil

    10 15.38%
  • Prosperity

    7 10.77%
  • Other

    18 27.69%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Social justice

  1. #131
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    ...in republican government, rights are secure, becuase the majority has no power to change or abolish rights, no matter if 99 % of the people want to...becuase rights are unalienable
    I understand your political theory. It works just like every other political theory until you put it to the test of reality. The reality is, the republican government isn't representing the best interest of the people very much. The truth is, they are representing either the party they belong to or the highest bidder.

    As for unalienable rights, the republican government of the US passed the Patriot Act and its amendments. This republican government does not view your rights as inalienable either. This is reality. This republican government thinks you have to give up your inalienable rights in order for them to protect you from suspected terrorists.

    So what really would hold a pure republican government responsible to the people is a mixed democracy where the people can at least call for a referendum if something like the Patriot Act passes. Just this possibility will go a long way toward having real individual justice as well as social justice. Why, because if politicians know something will lose in a referendum then they will try to get it right before a referendum occurs.

  2. #132
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Well you want the state to save people from their mistakes. Ironically that's exactly what a nanny does with an infant.
    People have a right to their mistakes.
    Well yes, you are correct to the extent that I think it preferable that safety nets exist to protect people, and in particular - their dependents, from the worst consequences of their errors of judgment. Whether mistakes are something subject to rights is too complex to be discussed here. That is best suited to a philosophical arena. But perhaps you are dealing with the sorts of conceptual extremes where even a murderer is exempt from the consequences of his actions - that is clearly not what I mean. My concept of social justice devolves about the reduction of human suffering, irrespective of who or what may have been responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    If you go trough all the discussion, you would see we agreed that "social justice" is about "equal rights" and not redistribution of wealth and services. No privileges to anyone.
    Of course social justice is primarily concerned with the provision of equal rights, and the abolition of privilege. The provision of social justice has little to do with the redistribution of wealth, and I am not sure why so many people keep bringing that up. The provision of a working minimum wage, the provision of pensions, annual leave, sick leave, maternity leave, universal healthcare, free tertiary education, etc. may have some impact upon profit margins, but they do not represent a substantial redistribution of wealth. And even in the event that they did, their positive effect upon the well-being of society would more than compensate for any reduction in returns to the shareholders. The benefits of a better educated society with a lesser disparity of wealth, lesser violence, less crime, and less poverty, are incalculable.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

  3. #133
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by kenc View Post
    I understand your political theory. It works just like every other political theory until you put it to the test of reality. The reality is, the republican government isn't representing the best interest of the people very much. The truth is, they are representing either the party they belong to or the highest bidder.

    As for unalienable rights, the republican government of the US passed the Patriot Act and its amendments. This republican government does not view your rights as inalienable either. This is reality. This republican government thinks you have to give up your inalienable rights in order for them to protect you from suspected terrorists.

    So what really would hold a pure republican government responsible to the people is a mixed democracy where the people can at least call for a referendum if something like the Patriot Act passes. Just this possibility will go a long way toward having real individual justice as well as social justice. Why, because if politicians know something will lose in a referendum then they will try to get it right before a referendum occurs.
    what i have put before you in what the american founding fathers created, and american was run on that idea, from its beginning until 1913.

    when even though our constitution states our government must be republican, the government has moved america towards democracy.

    it is not republican government that is the problem.... it is democracy, our founders stated democratic government are very factious/ filled with special interest..in federalist 10.

    america have been taught america is a democracy which is false , and it is this teaching that has cause america to decline, becuase we as a people are not following the constitution, but the ideas of democracy with are base on collectivism, and special interest of who has the most money.

    under republican government faction/ special interest is limited because power is separated in our government with checks and balances, and it is kept to a minimum, and not allowed to take over a system of republican government.

    the founders hated special interest, and those who would try to buy our government, so they created republican government, however it has been destroyed by the federal government who wish to serve their own interest and to be bought and paid for politicians.

    republican government needs to be stored, and put back in place, instead of the democratic one the federal government as imposed on the people.

  4. #134
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    in republican government, the people also have a say in government, they elect representatives also, however power in NOT only in the hands of the people,..... but the states themselves also.

    republican government separates power.....one of the checks and balances or government.

    if you put absolute power directly into, 1 person or a few, and all of the people, it will become tyrannical, and that is a fact.

    that is why James Madison says in federalist 47.."The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, selfappointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.

    the elective is the voting public, it you give them all of the power to vote directly for every federal politician, it is tyranny, becuase the people will use that power, and the majority of that power will take away rights of the minority.

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    ...republican government needs to be stored, and put back in place, instead of the democratic one the federal government as imposed on the people.
    While I think the people were allowed to vote from the very first election, it seems to me that you are advocating that the people not be allowed vote at all and have to trust in their government to do the right thing for them. While I personally don't agree with this I am willing to do the experiment and give up my right to vote in the US if everyone else would and turn back the political clock until 1788. Let's see how well the government does when it doesn't have to worry about the general consensus of the people.

  5. #135
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well, he's British. Not for him the animating contest of freedom - far better the lukewarm embrace of the soulless state office waiting room, the gentle ministrations of Health and Safety.
    I love how you think that depending on a private insurance company for your healthcare, that will try to take as much from you as possible, while withholding healthcare from you, is somehow more liberating than having a public democratically accountable healthcare system ....

    Ask anyone that lives in a country with not for profit public healthcare, see if they feel enslaved or lacking freedom, then ask someone who has to go into debt to pay for cancer treatment ....

    You have a strange concept of "liberty."

  6. #136
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    there are not enough people educated on the evils of democracy.

    to find out what our founders really created in america...see this link.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-con...overnment.html
    You want to get quotes on what the founding fathers thought about capitalism and finance and so on?

  7. #137
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    read about democracy and collectivism.

    democracy derives its rights from the collect group,............... not individuals.

    America was created with people having individual rights, there are no collective rights in American government.
    Collective rights are necessary for individual rights.

    Even the whole basis of Capitalism depends on collective rights, i.e. contract, and property, those are collective, if I own a big swath of land I need everyone to recognize that I own that land.

    You can't seperate the 2, especially with economics given that economics is by definition a social activity with social consequences.

  8. #138
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    OK, let me lay it out for you.

    - "Social justice is justice exercised within a society" - fair enough, justice it should be;
    - "particularly as it is applied to and among the various social classes of a society." - that simply means "no privileges for any class in society";
    - "A socially just society is one based upon the principles of equality" - Please, note: "the principles of equality".

    Why do leftist so often imply "wealth equality" instead of "rights equality"?
    Most leftists don't imply wealth equality, they imply access to capital equality.

    And that is because you're rights depend on access to capital and resources.

  9. #139
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Ah, yes, the Romans 9:21 argument. But that was St. Paul, not Jesus. Consider the following:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
    Not only that, but St. Paul in that argument was not discussing economics AT ALL, what he's saying is a form of James 1:13 we shouldn't blame God for things because he in the end with work things out, also that we should allow God for mold us like clay.

    If you want to read about the scriptures and social justice read http://www.debatepolitics.com/religi...l-justice.html

    The prophetic tradition of which Jesus was the zenith, and the 1st century church was largely about social justice.

  10. #140
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    Re: Social justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    What do peace and love have to do with "social justice"? What does charity have to do with redistribution of wealth in one form or another, as frequently presented by socialist preachers?
    Charity is charity - it's a product of one's free will. Unlike mandatory taxation.

    I found a good definition of "social justice":

    I agree with such a definition. "Social justice" is about justice (rights), not income.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/religi...l-justice.html

    Charity is a translation from the word Agape, it was never about philanthropy, it was a way of dealing with your fellow man, and the manifestation of that in the scriptures was the early church, it wasn't "charity" it was communitarian.

    It's not about redistribution, it's about democratization, "holding in common."

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