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Is obama an illegitimate president?

Is obama an illegitimate president

  • yes he was elected based on a lie

    Votes: 9 14.3%
  • no he was fairly elected

    Votes: 54 85.7%

  • Total voters
    63
I get that, but I think the why is obvious, it was group think, message by committee. No one really owned the messaging and the messaging was essentially negotiated. I seriously doubt that the people who put this together had the slightest feeling they were misleading, rather I suspect they probably thought they limiting the inclusion of information that they did not like and did want to put out until they had to with some cover in protecting the investigation. Clearly a big part of the problem was a conflation of Benghazi and Cairo.

I was more interested in what could have been done to bring reinforcements in, and I would still like more information than we have, but again, my only says that State was begging and the military could not commit troops at the time, or in time, with the information that could be ascertained at the time. What would you think is more likely, state asked and the military could not approve, or the military was hung ho and State held them back?

Group think, now that is something I never thought about that. Staffed around to where no staff or agency story of what they thought happened is actually told, a conglomeration of thoughts and some facts that probably no one was happy with. I know DOD and State usually has an uneasy working relationship, we work better with the CIA than State or at least use to, State probably wanted to hold the CIA activity down to a minimum in order to avoid any embarrassment in case any of the activity came out. Group think, interesting and I like that. It could very well account for all the different deletions and changes. We'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out.

The rescue missions are pretty much a judgement call. Sending 4 SF troops armed with either 9 mm or .45's into a situation that is basically unknown, i.e. against how many men, what weapons they have etc. probably was a sound decision. I can understand the troops wanting to go regardless, in my younger days, I would too and be pretty peeved that I wasn't allowed to. As to the aircraft, I don't know, there has been so many withdrawals from Europe and more going on now, I am not familiar with what is there anymore. At one time we did have reaction forces stationed at various places around the world that could be airborne and en-route in 2 hours. But even during the cold war, these forces weren't put on the ready unless there was something we suspected might happen.

So I suppose what piques our curiosity is me the report denying terrorist and you the response. I can understand one and you the other, but neither can understand both, at least as far as curiosity is concerned and neither of us is looking for heads to roll. Do I have this right?
 
In other words, no, you do not have any proof, only conspiracy theories.

Nothing can change the fact that his father was a British citizen making him not an NBC and not fit to even run for president.
 
Nixon used the tools of the FBI and CIA to assist in the cover up. It was an abuse of power, and he was rightly given what for because of it. No President should be able to do that with a government agency, which is why I find the IRS allegations far more disturbing than Benghazi.

Obama lied to the press. You may not like it, but that's not a crime. If you find evidence that an actual crime was committed in Benghazi, let's see it. So far I've seen failed leadership, botched response and lying to reporters. None of which is an actual crime. Abuse of power, as in Watergate, is a crime.

IMO leaving Americans twisting in the wind in a foreign embassy, not sending help when they are under attack is a crime.
 
Nope, he is a legitimate president. He's just not very good at it.
 
IMO leaving Americans twisting in the wind in a foreign embassy, not sending help when they are under attack is a crime.

Do you have law behind you, or just your opinion? You can't impeach and remove a President based on opinion.
 
Nixon used the tools of the FBI and CIA to assist in the cover up. It was an abuse of power, and he was rightly given what for because of it. No President should be able to do that with a government agency, which is why I find the IRS allegations far more disturbing than Benghazi.

Obama lied to the press. You may not like it, but that's not a crime. If you find evidence that an actual crime was committed in Benghazi, let's see it. So far I've seen failed leadership, botched response and lying to reporters. None of which is an actual crime. Abuse of power, as in Watergate, is a crime.

Looks like Obama has his own IRS problems. And not even trying to help when the **** hit the fan is a crime far worse than Watergate.
 
Do you have law behind you, or just your opinion? You can't impeach and remove a President based on opinion.

Yes 4 dead Americans. Orders to stand down. Not even one aircraft scrambled. Where exactly was Obama while all this was going on?
 
Do you have law behind you, or just your opinion? You can't impeach and remove a President based on opinion.

My previous post started out with "IMO" so your first question is answered. IMO if obama went to bed while our ambassador was begging for help it should be a crime even if technically it is not. I have never advocated for impeachment I just think he has forfeited any right to be taken seriously and as the OP states is an illegitimate president. If on the other hand this IRS thing gets traced back to him all bets are off.
 
Yes 4 dead Americans. Orders to stand down. Not even one aircraft scrambled. Where exactly was Obama while all this was going on?

Which laws were broken?
 
Looks like Obama has his own IRS problems. And not even trying to help when the **** hit the fan is a crime far worse than Watergate.

Well, I mentioned the IRS and the first thread on DP about that was started by me. -100 for reading comprehension.

Nobody takes your opinion seriously. Even the GOP doesn't think Obama was born in Africa.
 
Group think, now that is something I never thought about that. Staffed around to where no staff or agency story of what they thought happened is actually told, a conglomeration of thoughts and some facts that probably no one was happy with. I know DOD and State usually has an uneasy working relationship, we work better with the CIA than State or at least use to, State probably wanted to hold the CIA activity down to a minimum in order to avoid any embarrassment in case any of the activity came out. Group think, interesting and I like that. It could very well account for all the different deletions and changes. We'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out.

The rescue missions are pretty much a judgement call. Sending 4 SF troops armed with either 9 mm or .45's into a situation that is basically unknown, i.e. against how many men, what weapons they have etc. probably was a sound decision. I can understand the troops wanting to go regardless, in my younger days, I would too and be pretty peeved that I wasn't allowed to. As to the aircraft, I don't know, there has been so many withdrawals from Europe and more going on now, I am not familiar with what is there anymore. At one time we did have reaction forces stationed at various places around the world that could be airborne and en-route in 2 hours. But even during the cold war, these forces weren't put on the ready unless there was something we suspected might happen.

So I suppose what piques our curiosity is me the report denying terrorist and you the response. I can understand one and you the other, but neither can understand both, at least as far as curiosity is concerned and neither of us is looking for heads to roll. Do I have this right?

Agreed, unless someone made decisions that may have cost lives out of selfish interests, I think it is not much more than curiosity.
 
Benghazi is just further proof of that. But no laws were broken.

True. But I think that the fact that Dennis Rodman, a nobody from stupidland, managed to slap the entire Obama administration and is actually taken seriously. I wrote this in that thread too. This is proof that Obama, as a man, has no weight. Nothing. Nobody fears or respects him. Nobody. If your paycheck is not dependent on his good graces, you have no reason to respect Obama as a president. None. Dennis Rodman just proved this. You do have to respect the office of the presidency, of course, because its an important institution, but Obama, no.
 
True. But I think that the fact that Dennis Rodman, a nobody from stupidland, managed to slap the entire Obama administration and is actually taken seriously. I wrote this in that thread too. This is proof that Obama, as a man, has no weight. Nothing. Nobody fears or respects him. Nobody. If your paycheck is not dependent on his good graces, you have no reason to respect Obama as a president. None. Dennis Rodman just proved this. You do have to respect the office of the presidency, of course, because its an important institution, but Obama, no.

The only people I've seen taking Rodman seriously are the ones who love when anybody says something against Obama. Who was that doctor? I can't even remember his name anymore...
 
Well, I mentioned the IRS and the first thread on DP about that was started by me. -100 for reading comprehension.

Nobody takes your opinion seriously. Even the GOP doesn't think Obama was born in Africa.

Who said anything about him being born in Africa. That was his smoke screen for the fact that he is not an NBC. And you question my reading comprehension like I have read every post in here.
 
Benghazi is just further proof of that. But no laws were broken.

Other than violating your oath of office and the trust of the people. Its his 1st responsibility to protect the US and its citizens.
 
Obama administrations answer to everything


 
Who said anything about him being born in Africa. That was his smoke screen for the fact that he is not an NBC. And you question my reading comprehension like I have read every post in here.

How is not a "NBC" despite being born in Hawaii? Don't give me the **** about his father being a subject of the British Crown. Kids are born to one parent that is not a citizen. They've even become President before (Chet Arthur's father was a Irishman who first immigrated to Canada before coming to the US).
 
At this point I would like to make an observation:
Birthers are ****ing stupid.
 
How is not a "NBC" despite being born in Hawaii? Don't give me the **** about his father being a subject of the British Crown. Kids are born to one parent that is not a citizen. They've even become President before (Chet Arthur's father was a Irishman who first immigrated to Canada before coming to the US).

He was illegitimate as well and allowed the rumor to be spread he was born in Canada.
what was the original intent of the Natural Born Citizen clause. We are blessed with having the framers thoughts recorded for posterity. And we are doubly blessed that these records are few but in concert as to their intent.



John Jay wrote George Washington saying, "Permit me to hint whether it would not be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of foreigners into the administration of our national government; and to declare expressly that the command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on any but a natural born citizen."



Alexander Hamilton raises a very profound question as to influence of foreigners in our Presidency. “Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one querter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union?”



Clearly the NBC clause was established to prevent foreigners and foreign influence from taking command of America’s armed forces!



So the question is who is a foreigner? The three most popular dictionaries define a foreigner as one whose allegiance is owed to a foreign country.



MerriamWebster Dictionary - “a person belonging to or owing allegiance to a foreign country.”



Oxford English Dictionary – “One who is a subject of another country than that in which he resides. A resident foreign in origin and not naturalized, whose allegiance is thus due to a foreign state.”



Blacks Law Dictionary - “A person who is not a citizen or subject of the state or country in which mention is made, or any one owing allegiance to a foreign state or sovereign”



So the Framers only wanted a person to be President if they had no foreign allegiances. This seems to be the same sentiment about 80 years later when Congress was adopting the Civil Rights Act and 14th Amendment.



“I find no fault with the introductory clause, which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen; but, sir, I may be allowed to say further, that I deny that the Congress of the United States ever had the power or color of power to say that any man born within the jurisdiction of the United States, and not owing a foreign allegiance, is not and shall not be a citizen of the United States.” John A. Bingham, (R-Ohio) US Congressman, Architect of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment, March 9, 1866



What is so hard to understand, a natural born citizen is one who is born not owing allegiance to any country but the United States of America?
Natural Born Citizen
According to Chapter 19, §212 of "Law of Nations", the concept "Natural born citizen" is a twofold criterion meaning that:


Both parents must be the citizens of, and the birth must take place in the concerned country, assuming that the citizenship inherited by this child and the loyalty are never changed ever after.


In other words, a natural born citizen means at least a second generation citizen of the country. Vattel's own note on the margin of his book refers to the Roman law: NEMO PLUS JURIS TRANSFERRE POTEST, QUAM IPSE HABET, meaning "No one can give more rights than he himself has" (by Dr. A. Altec). Except for Obama/Soetoro, the Vattel definition had been always applied, the last precedent being the US Senate resolution 511 in 2008 (also here and here) acknowledging Sen. McCain as a natural born citizen.

Another indication to the meaning of the term may be found in the Supreme Court's definition of "natural born citizen" as "all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens" (Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 1875).

http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm
 
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The only people I've seen taking Rodman seriously are the ones who love when anybody says something against Obama. Who was that doctor? I can't even remember his name anymore...

That is true. But Obama isn't anything more than a citizen, like dennis rodman or that random doctor, and in equal rights. However, he should impose more respect. More authority. More dignity. It is one thing to be attacked by another political party, have another political party stage PR cues against the man in power... but a whole different thing when some nobody decides he can show-up the president. The man, Obama, commands no respect and no authority from any member of society. Maybe Chris Christie respects him but that's it.

It is not healthy for this to be this way. That's it.
 
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Both parents must be the citizens of, and the birth must take place in the concerned country, assuming that the citizenship inherited by this child and the loyalty are never changed ever after.

So when George Romney ran, that was illegitimate as well? George was born in Mexico. In fact, according to this definition, Mitt also cannot claim to be a Natural Born Citizen, nor can Marco Rubio whose parents were not citizens at the time of his birth.

According to the law of the United States, Obama is a Natural Born Citizen. According to the law of the United States, he can be President. Just because some guy named Vattel defined it differently in his book, which wasn't even the law of anything, he's valid.
 
That is true. But Obama isn't anything more than a citizen, like dennis rodman or that random doctor, and in equal rights. However, he should impose more respect. More authority. More dignity. It is one thing to be attacked by another political party, have another political party stage PR cues against the man in power... but a whole different thing when some nobody decides he can show-up the president. The man, Obama, commands no respect and no authority from any member of society. Maybe Chris Christie respects him but that's it.

It is not healthy for this to be this way. That's it.

That is the fault of the people who lack respect, not Obama. Among the right, respecting Obama is political suicide and has been from before he was sworn into office, not based on his person or his actions, but because of what the election of a liberal Democrat represents to the dying GOP at this period of American history. The same would apply to any human being who is not a neo-con eye balls deep in the GOP establsihment.

The antipathy toward Obama arises from historical trends (such as the Latino vote) which the GOP is mostly helpless to adapt to due to the nature of the monied special interests that rule their ethos and actions as a political party. Like any organism selected for evolutionary destruction, it flails around no matter how hopeless its odds of survival are.
 
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Where's the option for the presidency itself is illegitimate?
 
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