View Poll Results: Is obama an illegitimate president

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  • yes he was elected based on a lie

    19 23.46%
  • no he was fairly elected

    62 76.54%
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Thread: Is obama an illegitimate president?

  1. #51
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    Re: Is obama an illegitimate president?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Obama ran for a second term largely on the story that Alquiada had been decimated on his watch. Then when terrorist linked to Alquiada attacked a US embassy and killed the Ambassador along with several other Americans Obama lied to the voters and said it was a spontaneous demonstration that got out of hand and was caused by a you tube video. Now that it has come out that he flat out lied and was told by the CIA it was indeed terrorism and now that it has come out that he told the CIA to delete all references to terrorism it seems he was elected for a second term largely based on a lie. It could be argued that if the voters knew from the beginning that terrorist did this it very well could have swung the election. Does this make him a president elected under false pretenses and therefor illegitimate? They took away Lance Armstrong's medals for breaking the rules and lying about it and erased all his records calling them illegitimate so what's the difference here?
    Whether or not he lied is irrelevant to whether or not he is a 'legitimate' president. He was elected fairly and legally. After all, it's not like he's the only president to lie about something to get elected now is he. By my estimate there have been 43 of those.
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    Re: Is obama an illegitimate president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I 100% expect that if Obama had an (R) after his name and tried to pull the policy stuff he does today, he'd be lauded.

    Do you believe that? I don't.
    "Lauded" is extreme, but the response would be quite different.

    Back when there was a push for universal healthcare in the 90s, the Republicans proposed a plan that was broadly similar to the Affordable Care Act passed in 2010, which makes sense, given the disproportionate influence the center-right Blue Dogs at the time. In the 90s, adherents of America's right-wing political culture considered this a reasonable, mostly private sector solution to looming economic problems. Nonetheless, looking at broadly the same policy ten years later and invited to participate in the formative process, the Republican Party asserted Obama and the left-wing forces that supported it were dangerous radicals with whom it was impossible to even begin negotiation, while conservative grassroots empathetically argued that what Obama was trying to accomplish amounted to communism. Odd how a reasoned, mostly private sector alternative to socialized medicine transforms into dangerous radicialism in a ten-year period.

    Later on, when the political climate changed and new forms of Obama criticism developed, the conservative response started incorporating less "socialism" and more "incompetence" and "crony capitalism."

    Looking at the forces that shape political responses in this country, and looking particularly at the conservative responses to Republican forms of statism, I can fairly state they are largely comfortable with statism that has its origin in the machinations of the Republican Party.
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    Re: Is obama an illegitimate president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    "Lauded" is extreme, but the response would be quite different.

    Back when there was a push for universal healthcare in the 90s, the Republicans proposed a plan that was broadly similar to the Affordable Care Act passed in 2010, which makes sense, given the disproportionate influence the center-right Blue Dogs at the time. In the 90s, adherents of America's right-wing political culture considered this a reasonable, mostly private sector solution to looming economic problems. Nonetheless, looking at broadly the same policy ten years later and invited to participate in the formative process, the Republican Party asserted Obama and the left-wing forces that supported it were dangerous radicals with whom it was impossible to even begin negotiation, while conservative grassroots empathetically argued that what Obama was trying to accomplish amounted to communism. Odd how a reasoned, mostly private sector alternative to socialized medicine transforms into dangerous radicialism in a ten-year period.

    Later on, when the political climate changed and new forms of Obama criticism developed, the conservative response started incorporating less "socialism" and more "incompetence" and "crony capitalism."

    Looking at the forces that shape political responses in this country, and looking particularly at the conservative responses to Republican forms of statism, I can fairly state they are largely comfortable with statism that has its origin in the machinations of the Republican Party.
    What was attempted 20 years ago was not quite the same as PPACA because it didn't remove choice. Also, Republicans were flying high over the extraordinary success and goodwill of Contract With America. Obama came in here with some wack-a-doo ideas that would do nothing but turn a bad situation worse.

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    Re: Is obama an illegitimate president?

    Yes all politicians lie to get elected but this was more than a lie it was a cover up and as the facts come out it is far worse than Watergate which forced Nixon to resigns so in my honest opinion the election is invalid. I realize I am in the minority here but what else is new.

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    Re: Is obama an illegitimate president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    What was attempted 20 years ago was not quite the same as PPACA because it didn't remove choice. Also, Republicans were flying high over the extraordinary success and goodwill of Contract With America. Obama came in here with some wack-a-doo ideas that would do nothing but turn a bad situation worse.
    The different parts of those assertions don't follow through taken together. To start with, except for legwork, Obama wasn't even that involved with drafting the legislation. Like other liberals, his contributions were sidelined by senior and better connected Congressmen in favor of a blander, centrist approach that included heavy pandering the insurance companies. To speak of him coming in with "wack-a-doo" ideas doesn't follow through when his opinions didn't have much influence even in his own party.

    More importantly, it still doesn't rationalize the fierceness of the right-wing opposition or the nature of their objections. A stronger version of the 90s right-wing proposal that gives the government a bit more teeth is neither communism or a transformative moment in American history that changes the dynamics of how the government interacts with the private sector forever, which was how both the establishment and conservative grassroots politicized the issue.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 05-12-13 at 09:48 PM.
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    Re: Is obama an illegitimate president?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Yes all politicians lie to get elected but this was more than a lie it was a cover up and as the facts come out it is far worse than Watergate which forced Nixon to resigns so in my honest opinion the election is invalid. I realize I am in the minority here but what else is new.
    .... So... administration officials "lying" about the reasons behind Benghazi are worse than a US president committing a crime? Are you even trying to be partisan anymore?
    Last edited by Hatuey; 05-12-13 at 10:02 PM.
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    Re: Is obama an illegitimate president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    .... So... administration officials "lyin"g about the reasons behind Benghazi are worse than a US president committing a crime? Are you even trying to be partisan anymore?
    Since we don't know all the information behind the Benghazi situation, we do not yet know whether or not Obama and/or Clinton were indeed negligent in failing to perform their constitutional duties. If they did not perform their duties in accordance with their oaths of office then they were criminally negligent as it lead to the death of American Citizens, thus making if far worse than Watergate, which did not lead to the death of anyone, at least not that I am aware of.
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    Re: Is obama an illegitimate president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    .... So... administration officials "lyin"g about the reasons behind Benghazi are worse than a US president committing a crime? Are you even trying to be partisan anymore?
    Nixon tried to cover up a botched burglary, obama tried to cover up a botched reaction to a terrorist attack where 4 people died. You tell me which is worse.

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    Re: Is obama an illegitimate president?

    Are we still trying to find ways to weasel our way out of Obama. I will be the first to say I did not vote for Obama, but seeing as he is my President, I support him. Maybe if others would do the same then we would actually get something done once and a while. If you don't like the President, the people need to make a change in the next election. If he was so bad then he wouldn't have been voted in, get behind him because you had your chance to elect a different candidate and the majority of America didn't approve.
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    Re: Is obama an illegitimate president?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Yes all politicians lie to get elected but this was more than a lie it was a cover up and as the facts come out it is far worse than Watergate which forced Nixon to resigns so in my honest opinion the election is invalid. I realize I am in the minority here but what else is new.
    The answer to the riddle of Wategate resides in your own instictive need to compare every political scandal to it, an instict shared by many Americans -- Watergate was an example of corruption, a direct attack on the power of the ordinary man's vote, at a time when American's mainsteam culture was unfamiliar with corruption and hadn't yet developed either coping mechanisms or a clear idea of how to respond to it. And while it is taken for granted that Nixon would have been impeached, it isn't necessarily obvious impeachment would have succeeded if it had come to a vote -- but he was concerned enough with his legacy that he preferred walking out rather than taking a chance on it or even having his presidency tarnished by the process of impeachment, whether or not it succeeded irrevelant after that point.

    Watergate has thus become an archetype that holds sway over the nation's political consciousness and shapes our every emotional and mental response to perceived corruption. However, there is very little in comparison between Bengzhai and Watergate.

    Even assuming Obama committed some sort of misconduct comparable to Nixon (and he didn't), the real question is less whether he would be impeached but rather whether he would prefer to walk out rather than face the process of impeachment.

    In answer to that question: almost no sitting president after Nixon would prefer to walk out rather than face the process of impeachment head on.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 05-12-13 at 10:09 PM.
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