View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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  • Yes

    16 16.84%
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    70 73.68%
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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #81
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    I know that seeing as the Federal Government is not given the power to meddle with education, and that allows the state to assume that power, the Constitution though does state that the Federal Government has the power to do things that will provide for the general welfare. Would you support such a measure to nationalize schools? Feel free to explain your vote!
    First off, you need to go and learn what the general welfare is, and how it is applied to the Constitution. Your implied use of it here is a complete fallacy.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    The states and local districts have totally failed, so I'm for trying something else.
    It isn't a failre of the states or local districts. It's a failure of families and culture. You can lead a horse to water..........
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  3. #83
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    This is false, choices exist. The choices may not be ideal or possible, but they do exist.

    They also don't have a choice in where they live...it's either a trailer or no home. They don't have a choice on food...it's either unhealthy food or no food.

    The problem isn't the educational system, but rather the income status. So instead of trying to change a symptom, change the cause.

    Which is their choice. They do not have to.

    How would that change? If there are three public schools in a city and one private school, how would having the option to attend X school or Y school change the fact they are receiving services from the same school district? And if they all choose to attend the private school, how is the private school going to be able to support all those students (books, technology, classrooms, teachers, etc.), when they do not receive financial support from the government?

    The people who keep advocating this never bother to think this through. How would school vouchers help? Let's say I'm a troublemaking student from a poor family. Do you think I'm going to willingly go to a "bad" school? School vouchers would not change a single thing about the educational system, except enhance the shift towards educating those with money and leaving behind those without it.

    Schools don't CHOOSE to be bad. Most schools will do the best with what they have. Some schools have much better financial resources than others. Some schools exist in better neighborhoods than others. Some schools have a student population which place a lower value on education than others. These factors determine quality of education. The idea that "competition" will improve schools is false, as long as school attendance is compulsory. All you would be doing is adding to the problems.
    Interesting that you believe that a choice that is not possible is a choice. How does that work?

    You are making an assumption that with a sudden influx of funds from school vouchers in the low income areas that there would be no competition for the student. The reverse is probably true. In the inner city, there would be far more customers in a given area than there are in a suburban area that tends to have smaller families and with less concentration of prospective clients. The best way to get people, especially kids out of the ghettos and into a more productive life is through education. There are few that would make the case that inner city schools are now doing the best job of education. Some will still be lost, but those with caring but strapped parents have a good shot at making it out. I just don't get your argument that school vouchers would help those who least need it and not those that do. I am an optimist. I believe that there are still caring parents with less funds that would take the time and trouble to get their kids a better education. If not, then I don't see what will work.

    Schools do not choose to be bad. But many schools have no need to be better either. With competition, schools would need to be better or they would cease to exist.

  4. #84
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It isn't a failre of the states or local districts. It's a failure of families and culture. You can lead a horse to water..........
    That's very true that the individuals are also to blame, but there is something amiss when, for example, Detroit public schools try to bribe parents with a random car giveaway so that they get the kids in on the day the state records attendance. Then they end up with like 12% graduation rate, but they got their funding, so who cares. The fed simply has more resources and, hopefully, people who could run the system with more common sense.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    That's very true that the individuals are also to blame, but there is something amiss when, for example, Detroit public schools try to bribe parents with a random car giveaway so that they get the kids in on the day the state records attendance. Then they end up with like 12% graduation rate, but they got their funding, so who cares. The fed simply has more resources and, hopefully, people who could run the system with more common sense.
    It's sad, but it still boils down to culture and family. The fact that the school district is even trying to bribe parents tells us that the family is what is screwed up. Make no mistake- I don't agree with it at all, but when you have kids with parents who don't give a crap about their child's education, and won't even make an effort to insure the child's success, that kid is screwed, and it's not the schools or the administrators who are at fault. The ones to pity in this situation are the children who are cursed with parents who don't care enough to help them succeed. No school district can help in a situation such as this.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    I took a quick look at tuition at all the private schools I am aware of that are real schools within 40 minutes of my house. The most expensive one is $22,500 for day students; there are a couple in the mid-teens ($14K & $16K) as a day student--but all 3 are also boarding schools; and several in the $5K-$6.5K range for their most expensive grades--HS--and are mostly church affiliated, 2 of which are notorious for being fundamentalist indoctrination centers that will not admit your kid if you are not a member of the affiliated church unless one parents volunteers at the school so they can make sure you are of like mind with their teachings. The one we currently use is a satellite location for a more expensive one which is in a city too far away to commute and is $4200 a year for tuition for k-1, but they have after school programs that cost money plus all the normal fees so it runs closer to $5K but they do offer multi-child discounts with the top end cost currently around $12K for highest grades with more stepped up fees like $500 for books/materials, etc.. I just do not see vouchers being able to put most of these schools within reach for most poor people.

  7. #87
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    The public school system should be good enough quality that those who can afford private schools still opt for public, if it isn't there is a problem.

  8. #88
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Interesting that you believe that a choice that is not possible is a choice. How does that work?
    It works in the same way I mentioned before about the "choice" a family has in homes.

    You are making an assumption that with a sudden influx of funds from school vouchers in the low income areas that there would be no competition for the student.
    No, I'm telling you the competition for the student would have nothing to do with education. I can't make a student learn 4x5=20 if they don't want to learn it. No matter how much competition there is, it's not going to change the CULTURE of the student. All "competition" would do would change the way schools advertise, that's it.

    The best way to get people, especially kids out of the ghettos and into a more productive life is through education.
    I agree completely. But offering them a choice in school isn't going to change their mentality on education. You are operating under the false assumption all students want to come to school and want to learn. This is unequivocally false. No matter where certain children go to school, they are not going to want to be there and they will not be interested in learning.

    Offering a gang-banging, drug-dealing high school student a chance to change schools isn't going to magically make him change his attitude and become an honor student. To insinuate it will is simply false.

    There are few that would make the case that inner city schools are now doing the best job of education.
    But I bet if you'd go to those schools, there would be very few who'd come away saying those schools are not doing the best they can.

    I am an optimist. I believe that there are still caring parents with less funds that would take the time and trouble to get their kids a better education. If not, then I don't see what will work.
    The bolded is what's important. There are FAR too many parents who DON'T care if their child gets educated. Indeed, there are far too many parents who don't WANT their child to become educated. It's these students and families which drag down education. The choice of schools has absolutely nothing to do with.

    With competition, schools would need to be better or they would cease to exist.
    Where are you going to put the bad students when the "bad schools" fail? Other schools will not have the resources nor the space for them and these bad students aren't going to improve simply because they are going to another school. You would have EXACTLY the same problem you have now, just with fewer schools available to serve.

  9. #89
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by 0bserver92 View Post
    The public school system should be good enough quality that those who can afford private schools still opt for public, if it isn't there is a problem.
    How are they to accomplish that on such a limited budget? There are some like that i think, but most private schools aren't too stellar either, if we're talking K-12.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Then it would be up to the parents to make sure that the most profitable would also be the best place for their child to get an education.

    What is stopping the middle class from exercising their desire to get the best education for their child is funds. These same middle class will research ballet schools to determine those with the best program and that is where the kids go. In education the middle class have no choice. At $10,000/child, combined with need to still pay their taxes, that straps the family budget.
    It didn't stop mine. Our child got a good education for almost no money, relatively speaking. It's the parent's time and the community's inclusion that matters. If parents are involved in the schools it ends up being a good system. If the community cares about the schools it ends up being a good system.


    Paying $10000 a year for an education that's no better than the local public school is what straps the family budget. I'm not going to pay for my neighbor's kids to be trained in religion. If they want that, then they can fork up the extra money to get that. I'm more than willing to pay my share for a good education sans religion so they have almost nothing to pay except their time, just as my wife and I spent our time during my child's school years.
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