View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #491
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Also, paying off the debt is a duty of the treasury, not Congress
    And where does the Treasury get that authority? Isn't it part of the federal government? Where do you think Treasury gets the authority to mint coins and prosecute counterfeiters?

    It all goes back to Article 1 Section 8 - including paying the debt.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Well, considering that the first clause doesn't say anything about paying the debt at all, it makes little sense to me hay I should all of the sudden believe that the whole clause it to be taken as 3 individual powers being listed together...
    Yes it does. Are you still trying to read the Preamble instead of Article 1 Section 8?
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  3. #493
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It very clearly says that Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare of the USA. The radical right wing does not like it but your sainted hallowed founders did it to you just the same.

    This is written in English.
    It may be clear to those on the radical left, but in reality the clause in question simply gives congress the power to tax, and it limits this power to taxing only for specific purposes.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If you're correct then one would have to assume that paying the debts would just be another general statement as you claim providing for the common Defense and providing for the general welfare are, yet nothing is mentioned in the other parts about paying the debt - though borrowing money is allowed. Your interpretation would require that Congress can borrow money but has no authority to pay it back. Sorry, I just don't buy that.
    To borrow on credit means to take and use something (in this case money) under an agreement to pay it back later. I think it's safe to say that in giving congress the power to borrow money on the credit of the united states this includes the power to pay the money back.


    There are also numerous financial areas covered that have nothing to do with debt, Defense, or general welfare. At that time, postal service had almost nothing to do with the general welfare because there were few literate people. Naturalization, bankruptcy, coining money and the counter-fitting of same, etc, etc. - again, unrelated. Yes, there are some very specific powers about the military, which just shows me they wanted to be very explicit about that particular area of power, which many of them rightfully feared could be abused by the federal government. But nothing in any of that leads me to believe that the first part is JUST about the ability to lay and collect taxes, et al.
    I disagree. Each of the powers you mention are specifically aimed at the general welfare of the united states.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    then is education or housing a duty of congress to be involved in?.......and if you believe yes.

    then point to me in the constitution where it grants government that authority?
    How can you yet again ask this question after a day of exchanges on this very topic? that has been answered many many many times?

    Article I, Section 8.... Two different sections result in this - Congress shall have the power to provide for the general welfare of the USA and to pass laws which they believe are necessary and proper to achieve this power.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    It may be clear to those on the radical left, but in reality the clause in question simply gives congress the power to tax, and it limits this power to taxing only for specific purposes.
    The US Supreme Court says you are wrong.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The US Supreme Court says you are wrong.
    Thank you for that fascinating fact.

    Does your non sequitur mean you have given up arguing your case? If so, I accept your defeat.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Thank you for that fascinating fact.

    Does your non sequitur mean you have given up arguing your case? If so, I accept your defeat.
    My fact was part of evidence that you are incorrect in your statement. In the past, people here challenged me to cite some expert authorities who agree with various positions I have taken. I just provided you with them.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    My fact was part of evidence that you are incorrect in your statement. In the past, people here challenged me to cite some expert authorities who agree with various positions I have taken. I just provided you with them.
    So the fact that the federal government claims certain powers is your evidence that these powers were granted to it by the states? Okay, but we have to realize that this is no a particularly unbiased expert authority.

    Can you present any writings of the founders/ratifiers that article I section 8 grants plenary power to provide for the general welfare?

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    So the fact that the federal government claims certain powers is your evidence that these powers were granted to it by the states? Okay, but we have to realize that this is no a particularly unbiased expert authority.

    Can you present any writings of the founders/ratifiers that article I section 8 grants plenary power to provide for the general welfare?
    Granted to it through the US Constitution. I consider the individual opinions of founders to be irrelevant next to the actual document they gave us - the US Constitution - so I do not bother with such irrelevancies.

    One can indeed find levels of support through such founders as Hamilton. Report on Manufacturers 1791


    It is therefore of necessity left to the discretion of the National Legislature, to pronounce, upon the objects, which concern the general Welfare, and for which under that description, an appropriation of money is requisite and proper

    However, I do NOT hinge my view upon that and even though the Hamilton view agrees with mine, it is still irrelevant next to the Constitutional language itself.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-20-13 at 07:40 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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