View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #481
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    I didn't say that. What you're failing to understand is that the portion of the first paragraph that's an actual power is the authority to tax.

    What I said was that the rest is the reason for the taxes, which are all of the following powers. So basically, section 8 starts by saying how they can afford to do the things authorized by the constitution, the middle is all the legal powers given to the federal government by the states, and the last power is how they can create laws to make those powers happen.
    Really? Then as I noted above, there is no authority to pay the debts. The authority to borrow is specifically mentioned but no way to pay them is shown - except in the first part, right along with "provide for the common Defense and general welfare". All three of those are objects of the first partion of part one.


    Note: The second, which is also the last, partion of part one is "but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States".
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  2. #482
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    Why couldn't it be construed for adults as well? Education originally wasn't included as a power of Congress and then it got added and not yet successfully struck down. Someone could just as easily say that education should be controlled to the age of 30 or more.
    I don't recall any public school system requiring adults to attend school. Do you know of any?
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If you're correct then one would have to assume that paying the debts would just be another general statement as you claim providing for the common Defense and providing for the general welfare are, yet nothing is mentioned in the other parts about paying the debt - though borrowing money is allowed. Your interpretation would require that Congress can borrow money but has no authority to pay it back. Sorry, I just don't buy that.

    There are also numerous financial areas covered that have nothing to do with debt, Defense, or general welfare. At that time, postal service had almost nothing to do with the general welfare because there were few literate people. Naturalization, bankruptcy, coining money and the counter-fitting of same, etc, etc. - again, unrelated. Yes, there are some very specific powers about the military, which just shows me they wanted to be very explicit about that particular area of power, which many of them rightfully feared could be abused by the federal government. But nothing in any of that leads me to believe that the first part is JUST about the ability to lay and collect taxes, et al.
    You're just plain wrong here. The portion of the clause that's a power is taxing, the reason is to provide for the Defense and welfare. Those two things are listed later. This is what the people that wrote it explained later on, and, frankly, it's incredibly obvious based on nothing less than the definition of a constitution, and for that matter, a republic.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    You're just plain wrong here. The portion of the clause that's a power is taxing, the reason is to provide for the Defense and welfare. Those two things are listed later. This is what the people that wrote it explained later on, and, frankly, it's incredibly obvious based on nothing less than the definition of a constitution, and for that matter, a republic.
    You didn't address the issue in my post at all. Try again.


    If taxing is the only power listed in part 1 then where is the authority to pay the debt? And if you admit that's also in part 1, as an object to the first portion of the statement, then you also have to admit Defense and general welfare. Zero or three objects, your choice. Anything else is half-assed at best.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    You're just plain wrong here. The portion of the clause that's a power is taxing, the reason is to provide for the Defense and welfare. Those two things are listed later. This is what the people that wrote it explained later on, and, frankly, it's incredibly obvious based on nothing less than the definition of a constitution, and for that matter, a republic.
    39 people signed the Constitution. Show me the same 39 whose opinions are the same as the others cited here and we may have something to consider. Until then, it doesn't matter what was or was not intended by some of the signers. All that matters is what was signed, just like any other contract.
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  6. #486
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Strawman. Nobody said they did.
    then is education or housing a duty of congress to be involved in?.......and if you believe yes.

    then point to me in the constitution where it grants government that authority?

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You didn't address the issue in my post at all. Try again.


    If taxing is the only power listed in part 1 then where is the authority to pay the debt? And if you admit that's also in part 1, as an object to the first portion of the statement, then you also have to admit Defense and general welfare. Zero or three objects, your choice. Anything else is half-assed at best.
    Well, considering that the first clause doesn't say anything about paying the debt at all, it makes little sense to me hay I should all of the sudden believe that the whole clause it to be taken as 3 individual powers being listed together...

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    39 people signed the Constitution. Show me the same 39 whose opinions are the same as the others cited here and we may have something to consider. Until then, it doesn't matter what was or was not intended by some of the signers. All that matters is what was signed, just like any other contract.
    Find a founder who says otherwise, I shouldn't have to go through every opinion of every signer to find that for you. I've read plenty of the federalist and anti federalist, the Kentucky resolution, and a number of other documents, in which there was much discussion over the topic of federal overreaching into states' duties. Nobody wanted the federal government to control everything in the manner you're suggesting.

    Even still, the state's are the ones in changed of the federal government, as they are its creator. The right to nullify federal laws exists no matter what you call it.

    Also, if the federal government can do anything under the label of "providing for the general welfare," then what does the tenth amendment allow? Why would they write that?

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Really? Then as I noted above, there is no authority to pay the debts. The authority to borrow is specifically mentioned but no way to pay them is shown - except in the first part, right along with "provide for the common Defense and general welfare". All three of those are objects of the first partion of part one.


    Note: The second, which is also the last, partion of part one is "but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States".
    Also, paying off the debt is a duty of the treasury, not Congress

  10. #490
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Find a founder who says otherwise, I shouldn't have to go through every opinion of every signer to find that for you. I've read plenty of the federalist and anti federalist, the Kentucky resolution, and a number of other documents, in which there was much discussion over the topic of federal overreaching into states' duties. Nobody wanted the federal government to control everything in the manner you're suggesting.
    The positive claim that the government does have the right has already held up in a court of law. If you oppose that view, then it's on you to prove it's incorrect and you can't do that or someone would have already done it.

    In a court of law you must show that all parties intended something not written or it won't hold up. One person cannot go into court and say, "But that's not what I intended!".


    I wasn't suggesting any particular manner other than a minimal standard for primary and secondary education. What else you believe is your own imagination run wild.


    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Even still, the state's are the ones in changed of the federal government, as they are its creator. The right to nullify federal laws exists no matter what you call it.
    If all the states want to get together and make an Amendment to clarify or change Article 1 Section 8 they certainly have that option as outlined in Article 5 and the same goes for any other section of the Constitution.


    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Also, if the federal government can do anything under the label of "providing for the general welfare," then what does the tenth amendment allow? Why would they write that?
    Nothing I've said would allow the federal government to "do anything" as you seem to think. I've said from the start it's a matter of how you interpret "general welfare" and what that covers. It's the job of the USSC to do that if someone thinks Congress has overstepped their bounds.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-20-13 at 01:50 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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