View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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  • Yes

    16 16.84%
  • No

    70 73.68%
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    9 9.47%
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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #471
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    The States retained sovereignty in all matters not exclusively delegated to the federal government. Alexander Hamilton says in Federalist No. 32 (2nd para):


    “An entire consolidation of the States into one complete national sovereignty would imply an entire subordination of the parts; and whatever powers might remain in them, would be altogether dependent on the general will. But as the plan of the convention [the Constitution] aims only at a partial union or consolidation, the State governments would clearly retain all the rights of sovereignty which they before had, and which were not … EXCLUSIVELY delegated to the United States…” [caps are Hamilton's; boldface mine]

    Federalist No. 62 (5th para):


    “…the equal vote allowed to each State [each State gets two U.S. Senators] is …a constitutional recognition of the portion of sovereignty remaining in the individual States and an instrument for preserving that residuary sovereignty… [in order to guard] … against an improper consolidation of the States into one simple republic.” (Madison or Hamilton) [boldface mine]

    See also Federalist No. 39 (Madison) (6th para, et seq.)

    In Madison’s Report on The Virginia Resolutions (1799-1800), he several times refers, in his discussion of the 3rd Resolution, to the States acting “in their sovereign capacity” when, as “the parties to the constitutional compact” they decide “in the last resort, whether the compact made by them be violated”:


    “…The states, then, being the parties to the constitutional compact, and in their sovereign capacity, it follows of necessity that there can be no tribunal, above their authority, to decide, in the last resort, whether the compact made by them be violated; and consequently, that, as the parties to it, they must themselves decide, in the last resort, such questions as may be of sufficient magnitude to require their interposition….” [boldface mine]

    4 Contrary to the misconstructions long and unlawfully applied by the federal government, the federal Constitution is one of enumerated powers only. E.g.:


    “…the proposed government cannot be deemed a national one; since its jurisdiction extends to certain enumerated objects only, and leaves to the several States a residuary and inviolable sovereignity over all other objects…” (Federalist No. 39, 3rd para from end) (Madison) [boldface mine]

    “…the general [federal] government is not to be charged with the whole power of making and administering laws. Its jurisdiction is limited to certain enumerated objects...” (Federalist No. 14, 8th para) (Madison) [boldface mine]

    “…It merits particular attention … that the laws of the Confederacy [Congress], as to the ENUMERATED and LEGITIMATE objects of its jurisdiction, will become the SUPREME LAW of the land…Thus the legislatures, courts, and magistrates, of the respective members [the States], will be incorporated into the operations of the national government AS FAR AS ITS JUST AND CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY EXTENDS…” [caps are Hamilton’s] (Federalist No. 27, last para)

  2. #472
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Yeah, it does. Congress has the power to tax, to provide for the general welfare. It has the power to tax. It doesn't have the power to provide for the general welfare.


    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
    It very clearly says that Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare of the USA. The radical right wing does not like it but your sainted hallowed founders did it to you just the same.

    This is written in English.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    So your argument is that the federal government has asserted that it's actions are constitutional. And how does this have any bearing on what the constitution says or what it is that the states agreed to?
    Because the US Supreme COurt is the decider on these issues through its power of judicial review. That is how it has bearing on this.

    The fact that you think the federal government ignores the Constitution means nothing in this discussion no more than any other self imposed belief which is not borne out by reality.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    really?

    what are foregoing powers?.........
    Congress shall have the power to provide for the general welfare of the United States. Article I, Section 8.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Congress shall have the power to provide for the general welfare of the United States. Article I, Section 8.

    that's right, and it is the powers enumerated to congress, and there are 18 of them, which binds the compact.

    congress does not have unlimited power to act at will.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    I know that seeing as the Federal Government is not given the power to meddle with education, and that allows the state to assume that power, the Constitution though does state that the Federal Government has the power to do things that will provide for the general welfare. Would you support such a measure to nationalize schools? Feel free to explain your vote!
    No way, no (bleep!)ing way, never. Close down the Department of Education and return decision making power to the local schools, then allow the parents the choice of which school to patronize.

    Allow choice! In this nation that supposedly values liberty, the question of whether to allow choice should always be answered in the affirmative. It should never, in fact, have to be asked in the first place.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    that's right, and it is the powers enumerated to congress, and there are 18 of them, which binds the compact.

    congress does not have unlimited power to act at will.
    Strawman. Nobody said they did.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Except that provide for the general welfare is meant to convey the powers later mentioned, not any power congress wants. Even later in section 8 it makes it clear that congress has the power to make the laws pursuant of those specific powers. Why would they make that distinction?
    Why would Section 8 be the only section in Article 1 where they had some kind of preface? None of the other Sections of Article 1 have anything like that - at least Articles 6-10 don't. There was a thread about this very subject in the Loft so I went out and looked. You should, too, before you try to continue down this road.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Why would Section 8 be the only section in Article 1 where they had some kind of preface? None of the other Sections of Article 1 have anything like that - at least Articles 6-10 don't. There was a thread about this very subject in the Loft so I went out and looked. You should, too, before you try to continue down this road.
    I didn't say that. What you're failing to understand is that the portion of the first paragraph that's an actual power is the authority to tax.

    What I said was that the rest is the reason for the taxes, which are all of the following powers. So basically, section 8 starts by saying how they can afford to do the things authorized by the constitution, the middle is all the legal powers given to the federal government by the states, and the last power is how they can create laws to make those powers happen.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    This is the basis of our disagreement. I don't agree that it obviously means that congress was given plenary power to provide for the general welfare. If it were, then there would not have been any need for the remainder of Art I, section 8.

    Your interpretation means that the states, in establishing their compact, gave unlimited power to the federal government. I don't accept this notion.

    But then again, ultimately, the federal government will do what it chooses to do, until it is unable to get away with it. A piece of paper has never and can never restrain government. Our discussion is purely academic.
    If you're correct then one would have to assume that paying the debts would just be another general statement as you claim providing for the common Defense and providing for the general welfare are, yet nothing is mentioned in the other parts about paying the debt - though borrowing money is allowed. Your interpretation would require that Congress can borrow money but has no authority to pay it back. Sorry, I just don't buy that.

    There are also numerous financial areas covered that have nothing to do with debt, Defense, or general welfare. At that time, postal service had almost nothing to do with the general welfare because there were few literate people. Naturalization, bankruptcy, coining money and the counter-fitting of same, etc, etc. - again, unrelated. Yes, there are some very specific powers about the military, which just shows me they wanted to be very explicit about that particular area of power, which many of them rightfully feared could be abused by the federal government. But nothing in any of that leads me to believe that the first part is JUST about the ability to lay and collect taxes, et al.
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