View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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    16 16.84%
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    70 73.68%
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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #461
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Only the right wing believes that.
    Only the left wing denies it.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    You obviously have reading comprehension issues.

    The constitution says that congress has the power to tax to provide for the general welfare. The power to tax. Not the power to provide for the general welfare.

    The constitution contradicts your position, not mine.
    And you have truth issues. IT DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU WROTE IN YOUR POST.

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
    Your interpretation is simply inane and is upside down Alice In Wonderland Mad Hatter thinking.

    the Constitution is clear that Congress has the power to tax and provide for the general welfare and may pass all laws necessary and proper for carrying out those powera. Its all there in Article I Section 8.

    I get that radical right wingers who hate government don't like that so will stand on their head and invent all sorts of Mad Hatter interpretations of what is actually there so as to pretend they have a point. Which they do not.

    The Constitution says what it says and what it says is that Congress has the power to tax and provide for the general welfare and may pass all laws necessary and proper for carrying out those powers.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #463
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Only the left wing denies it.
    The US Supreme Court does not agree with you.

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    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And you have truth issues. IT DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU WROTE IN YOUR POST.
    Yeah, it does. Congress has the power to tax, to provide for the general welfare. It has the power to tax. It doesn't have the power to provide for the general welfare.

    Your interpretation is simply inane and is upside down Alice In Wonderland Mad Hatter thinking.

    the Constitution is clear that Congress has the power to tax and provide for the general welfare and may pass all laws necessary and proper for carrying out those powera. Its all there in Article I Section 8.
    It may be clear to you, but that is not what it says. It makes it clear that congress has the power to tax in order to provide for the general welfare.

    I get that radical right wingers who hate government don't like that so will stand on their head and invent all sorts of Mad Hatter interpretations of what is actually there so as to pretend they have a point. Which they do not.
    And I get that radical left wingers who hate freedom don't like that the language of the constitution doesn't say what they want, so they stand on their head and invent all sorts of Mad Hatter interpretations that justify their enslaving of their fellow man.


    The Constitution says what it says and what it says is that Congress has the power to tax and provide for the general welfare and may pass all laws necessary and proper for carrying out those powers.
    No, it doesn't say that. You have reading comprehension issues. It says that congress has the power to lay and collect taxes, to provide for the general welfare of the united states. It has the power to lay and collect taxes. That's all. Deal with it.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The US Supreme Court does not agree with you.

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    So your argument is that the federal government has asserted that it's actions are constitutional. And how does this have any bearing on what the constitution says or what it is that the states agreed to?

    And as I said before, the federal government will do whatever it wants as long as it has the power to get away with it. The fact that the federal government ignores the constitution means nothing in this particular discussion.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Only the right wing believes that.
    really? here is the clause you sited.

    "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof"

    what are foregoing powers?........they are the 18 enumerated duties of congress only.

    any law which they create which is outside of the enumerated duties is unconstitutional.

  7. #467
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    really? here is the clause you sited.

    "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof"

    what are foregoing powers?........they are the 18 enumerated duties of congress only.

    any law which they create which is outside of the enumerated duties is unconstitutional.
    A statist will always add, "...unless the federal government says that it's constitutional."

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    A written constitution is an interesting idea, but paper doesn't have the power to constrain government.
    that is why the states power is vast, and we dont have a national government but a federal one.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The US Supreme Court does not agree with you.

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    Madison actually says, that it is “a plain principle, founded in common sense” that The States are the final authority on whether the federal government has violated our Constitution! Under his discussion of the 3rd Resolution, Madison says:


    “It appears to your committee to be a plain principle, founded in common sense, illustrated by common practice, and essential to the nature of compacts; that where resort can be had to no tribunal superior to the authority of the parties, the parties themselves must be the rightful judges in the last resort, whether the bargain made, has been pursued or violated. The Constitution of the United States was formed by the sanction of the States, given by each in its sovereign capacity. It adds to the stability and dignity, as well as to the authority of the Constitution, that it rests on this legitimate and solid foundation. The States then being the parties to the constitutional compact, and in their sovereign capacity, it follows of necessity, that there can be no tribunal above their authority, to decide in the last resort, whether the compact made by them be violated; and consequently that as the parties to it, they must themselves decide in the last resort, such questions as may be of sufficient magnitude to require their interposition.”

    A bit further down, Madison explains that if, when the federal government usurps power, the States cannot act so as to stop the usurpation, and thereby preserve the Constitution as well as the safety of The States; there would be no relief from usurped power. This would subvert the Rights of the People as well as betray the fundamental principle of our Founding:


    “…If the deliberate exercise, of dangerous power, palpably withheld by the Constitution, could not justify the parties to it, in interposing even so far as to arrest the progress of the evil, and thereby to preserve the Constitution itself as well as to provide for the safety of the parties to it; there would be an end to all relief from usurped power, and a direct subversion of the rights specified or recognized under all the State constitutions, as well as a plain denial of the fundamental principle on which our independence itself was declared.” [emphasis mine]

    A bit further down, Madison answers the objection “that the judicial authority is to be regarded as the sole expositor of the Constitution, in the last resort”.

    Madison explains that when the federal government acts outside the Constitution by usurping powers, and when the Constitution affords no remedy to that usurpation; then the Sovereign States who are the Parties to the Constitution must likewise step outside the Constitution and appeal to that original natural right of self-defense.

    Madison also says that the Judicial Branch is as likely to usurp as are the other two Branches. Thus, The Sovereign States, as The Parties to the Constitution, have as much right to judge the usurpations of the Judicial Branch as they do the Legislative and Executive Branches:


    “…the judicial department, also, may exercise or sanction dangerous powers beyond the grant of the Constitution; and, consequently, that the ultimate right of the parties to the Constitution, to judge whether the compact has been dangerously violated, must extend to violations by one delegated authority as well as by another — by the judiciary as well as by the executive, or the legislature.”

    Madison goes on to say that all three Branches of the federal government obtain their delegated powers from the Constitution; and they may not annul the authority of their Creator. And if the Judicial Branch connives with other Branches in usurping powers, our Constitution will be destroyed. So the Judicial Branch does not have final say as


    “…to the rights of the parties to the constitutional compact, from which the judicial as well as the other department hold their delegated trusts. On any other hypothesis, the delegation of judicial power, would annul the authority delegating it; 10 and the concurrence of this department with the others in usurped powers, might subvert forever, and beyond the possible reach of any rightful remedy, the very Constitution, which all were instituted to preserve.”

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The US Supreme Court does not agree with you.

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    What? A branch of the federal government thinks that the federal government has unlimited powers? Inconceivable!

    No matter how you look at it, there's no sense to the logic that a group of people would make a document designed to limit the scope and power of a government while giving it authority to do anything it wanted. Further, it makes a list of things the government can do, each having ONE power per item, except for one giving it three separate powers at once, and repeating a power even (the common defense part)

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