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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #431
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Yes, those limits on the power to tax are indeed specified. Congress may collect taxes only for those purposes.

    But again, the language under consideration merely gives congress the power to tax for specific purpose. It grants no other powers.
    In that particular passage it does - and those specific purposes include "provide for the general welfare". I'm sure it could be easily construed to include establishing basic educational requirements for non-adults, especially given modern times.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    I would suggest that article I, section 8 merely grants congress the power to tax in order to provide for the general welfare. I think that most people can see that this would be the case. If congress had been given a separate power to provide for the general welfare, it would have made it unnecessary to provide the rest of article I, section 8. All the remaining powers would have been superfluous.
    You're trying to make a distinction where none exists. Congress can tax et al to provide for the general welfare. That obviously means Congress can "provide for the general welfare", since it is specifically listed as one of the things it can do with the taxes et al it collects.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You're trying to make a distinction where none exists. Congress can tax et al to provide for the general welfare. That obviously means Congress can "provide for the general welfare", since it is specifically listed as one of the things it can do with the taxes et al it collects.
    Except that provide for the general welfare is meant to convey the powers later mentioned, not any power congress wants. Even later in section 8 it makes it clear that congress has the power to make the laws pursuant of those specific powers. Why would they make that distinction?

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You're trying to make a distinction where none exists. Congress can tax et al to provide for the general welfare. That obviously means Congress can "provide for the general welfare", since it is specifically listed as one of the things it can do with the taxes et al it collects.
    This is the basis of our disagreement. I don't agree that it obviously means that congress was given plenary power to provide for the general welfare. If it were, then there would not have been any need for the remainder of Art I, section 8.

    Your interpretation means that the states, in establishing their compact, gave unlimited power to the federal government. I don't accept this notion.

    But then again, ultimately, the federal government will do what it chooses to do, until it is unable to get away with it. A piece of paper has never and can never restrain government. Our discussion is purely academic.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What you did was fundamentally intellectually dishonest in addition to being outright false. FDR never had a program to confiscate and destroy all the excess or extra or surplus food in the USA. Never happened.
    you are attempting to create an interpretation which would be narrowly incorrect (a matter of degree) in order to justify your own failure of knowledge (a matter of subject)? Okay, Haymarket. Given the rest of your performance here, I'm sure folks believe you

    In your opinion which is not supported by a reading of the clause itself.
    Funny how you say that, and then when we cite the actual writing of the clause and the opinions of the people who wrote it on what it meant you respond with the idea that it's "just their opinion" . I'd say they would know better than you.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post



    I would suggest that article I, section 8 merely grants congress the power to tax in order to provide for the general welfare. I think that most people can see that this would be the case. If congress had been given a separate power to provide for the general welfare, it would have made it unnecessary to provide the rest of article I, section 8. All the remaining powers would have been superfluous.
    You can suggest anything you want to suggest. Congress was given the power to provide for the general welfare. It has already been cited and quoted for you.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Except that provide for the general welfare is meant to convey the powers later mentioned, not any power congress wants.
    It says what it says. And what is says is that Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare. All of the circular arguments, all of the hurdles you want to create from your own vivid imagination, all of the scenarios you want to invent, are irrelevant next to the actual language of the Constitution.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you are attempting to create an interpretation which would be narrowly incorrect (a matter of degree) in order to justify your own failure of knowledge (a matter of subject)? Okay, Haymarket. Given the rest of your performance here, I'm sure folks believe you



    Funny how you say that, and then when we cite the actual writing of the clause and the opinions of the people who wrote it on what it meant you respond with the idea that it's "just their opinion" . I'd say they would know better than you.
    Your opinion is irrelevant next to the actual language of the US Constitution which clearly says that Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare.

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


    The opinion of individuals is irrelevant next to the actual language of the US Constitution which clearly says that COngress has the power to provide for the general welfare.

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


    Any attack you make upon me is irrelevant next to the actual language of the US Constitution which clearly says that Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare.


    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
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  9. #439
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    Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    In that particular passage it does - and those specific purposes include "provide for the general welfare". I'm sure it could be easily construed to include establishing basic educational requirements for non-adults, especially given modern times.
    Why couldn't it be construed for adults as well? Education originally wasn't included as a power of Congress and then it got added and not yet successfully struck down. Someone could just as easily say that education should be controlled to the age of 30 or more.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You can suggest anything you want to suggest. Congress was given the power to provide for the general welfare. It has already been cited and quoted for you.
    You're wrong. Congress was given the power to tax. It may tax only in order to pay its debts, provide for the common defense, and provide for the general welfare. It has no plenary power to provide for the general welfare.

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