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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #421
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Not when the earliest rulings of the supreme court specifically stated that the constitution must be looked at in the manner in which its creators intended. That was even upheld as recently as 2008
    And it was ignored at other times. I previously mentioned the 14th Amendment in this regard.


    Centuries ago the signers were available for questioning. Today, that's not the case and not all of them put their opinions on paper, so their opinions are obviously not all represented today. We don't know what many signers understood of what they were signing and what it's "intent" was.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-19-13 at 03:28 PM.
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  2. #422
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    And it was ignored at other times. I previously mentioned the 14th Amendment in this regard.


    Centuries ago the signers were available for questioning. Today, that's not the case and not all of them put their opinions on paper, so their opinions are obviously not all represented today. We don't know what many signers understood of what they were signing and what it's "intent" was.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    And it was ignored at other times. I previously mentioned the 14th Amendment in this regard.


    Centuries ago the signers were available for questioning. Today, that's not the case and not all of them put their opinions on paper, so their opinions are obviously not all represented today. We don't know what many signers understood of what they were signing and what it's "intent" was.
    The huge majority of them have written their intentions and their explanations. You're twisting the preamble to the constitution to mean that the constitution gives all rights, whatsoever, to the federal government for the purposes of providing for the general welfare. If there were founders who thought the intent of the preamble was to do that, then we'd have seen that and no federalist or anti federalist would have come to an agreement. In fact, the people against the constitution were worried that people would misinterpret that clause, like you're doing right now, and that forces MANY discussions from the federalists to assure them that it isn't made to create an unlimited government.

    The preamble uses 'general welfare' as a reference to the later enumerated powers. The 1st enumerated power is only applicable to taxes, still using general welfare as a reference to those powers later clarified.

    For example, it says provide for the common defense, then later spells at how they provide for the common defense (creating an army and navy, defending the states by calling for support from the militias, etc). Why state exactly how something is to be done if you're authorizing the government to make laws in pursuance of the enumerated powers? Because they wanted clarity and assurances for the states (the federal government's sovereign)

  4. #424
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System





    Edumacation is fracked up enough as it is, no need to make it suck uniformly everywhere.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    There is you mistake. Congress has no grant of power to provide for the general welfare. Per the relevant language, congress has a grant of power to collect taxes. That is all.
    It says right in Article I that they do

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    The huge majority of them have written their intentions and their explanations.
    Please provide verifiable evidence of this claim.

    The preamble uses 'general welfare' as a reference to the later enumerated powers.

    Article I clearly states that Congress has the power in the area of providing for the General Welfare. Its right there in plain English on the printed page.

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The power to tax et al to:

    1. pay the debt
    2. provide for the common Defense
    3. provide for the general welfare
    Yes, those limits on the power to tax are indeed specified. Congress may collect taxes only for those purposes.

    But again, the language under consideration merely gives congress the power to tax for specific purpose. It grants no other powers.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It says right in Article I that they do

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
    So is it your position that congress has the power to collect taxes, and congress also has a separate power to provide for the general welfare?

    EDIT - I see you have provided the answer in another post:

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Article I clearly states that Congress has the power in the area of providing for the General Welfare.
    I would suggest that article I, section 8 merely grants congress the power to tax in order to provide for the general welfare. I think that most people can see that this would be the case. If congress had been given a separate power to provide for the general welfare, it would have made it unnecessary to provide the rest of article I, section 8. All the remaining powers would have been superfluous.
    Last edited by Federalist; 05-19-13 at 05:24 PM.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by longknife View Post
    If you are using this as an excuse to increase the power of Big Brother to indoctrinate our youth, it's awfully lame!
    I think there are certain parameters, like the three R's, certain basics of society (What are contracts? for example), basics of history (Missouri requires grade schools to cover the US Constitution as well as our state's constitution and major laws), basics of science (the scientific method, measurement, critical thought, etc), public and personal health, etc, etc. There's not a damn thing wring with the things I was taught in school and I learned all that and more. Every adult US citizen - and would-be citizen as far as I'm concerned - should be able to pass a basic HS senior's test.
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  10. #430
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    The huge majority of them have written their intentions and their explanations. You're twisting the preamble to the constitution to mean that the constitution gives all rights, whatsoever, to the federal government for the purposes of providing for the general welfare. If there were founders who thought the intent of the preamble was to do that, then we'd have seen that and no federalist or anti federalist would have come to an agreement. In fact, the people against the constitution were worried that people would misinterpret that clause, like you're doing right now, and that forces MANY discussions from the federalists to assure them that it isn't made to create an unlimited government.

    <snip - continue unrelated post about preamble>
    The Preamble?!? I was quoting Article I, Section 8.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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